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Old 07-16-2008, 09:04 AM
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

I would like to ask why essential packages are not included on the first Debian download cd/iso. I use Nvidia and Atheros wireless, but the packages module-assistant, build essential, kernel headers, wireless-tools etc, are needed for most other graphic, network driver and firmware installations. They are free, do not take up space, but without them (on a wireless only computer) you hit a vicious circle; Needing internet to be able to get internet.

I have backups (via aptoncd) for all of the aforementioned tools and dependencies for Etch, Lenny and Sid. However, I ythink that their inclusion is far more important than, say... renaming Firefox or including Mono in the gnome desktop.

Maybe somebody could explain why they aren't included from the get-go.

Thanks

Richs


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Old 07-16-2008, 05:40 PM
Leo 'costela' Antunes
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

Hi,

richs@dreamlinuxforums.org wrote:
> They are free, do not take up space, but
> without them (on a wireless only computer) you hit a vicious circle;
> Needing internet to be able to get internet.

Avoiding the free vs. non-free firmware issue, most of these packages
are available on Debian CDs/DVDs, just perhaps not on the first
installation media. The choice of which software to put on the first CD
is a correlation between software importance and target audience size,
so it's not so easy to determine.

If I understand your problem correctly, the packages you need
(atl2-modules) aren't even available in Etch, so you're probably talking
about Lenny CDs, right? If not, I guess this might be a problem.

If what you mean is madwifi-source, then the problem is the non-free
status, which means we simply can't distribute it on CDs.

If the package you need isn't a victim of any of the above mentioned
problems, you can find the CDs which contain it here[0].

> I have backups (via aptoncd) for all of the aforementioned tools and
> dependencies for Etch, Lenny and Sid. However, I ythink that their
> inclusion is far more important than, say... renaming Firefox or
> including Mono in the gnome desktop.

Mono is not included in the first CD, just as the tools you need.
The renaming of Firefox is not a matter of taste (as could be argued
about the order of packages on CDs), and had to be done because of the
reasons explained here[1] (lots of mail-list archive reading...).
So neither of those are arguments have any relevance to the matter at hand.

Cheers

[0] http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/12/msg00328.html

--
Leo "costela" Antunes
[insert a witty retort here]
 
Old 07-16-2008, 07:53 PM
richs
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

Hi, basically I am requesting module-assistant, build-essential and the
kernel headers for the default kernel on the first iso. These are basic
tools that are necessary to be able to install non-free, proprietary
packages such as madwifi, nvidia-drivers etc.


My main point is the wireless issue (Atheros; Madwifi ath_pci module not
ath5k), but there are many people who use USB modems and other hardware
who need to compile drivers and modules to get an internet connection.
Most will have the firmware and drivers available, but the
aforementioned packages are essential to be able to compile/build/install.


As for Mono, I was referring to the latest Gnome release on Lenny and
Sid, not Etch. I have my own personal gripes about the renaming of
Firefox etc, but that's another issue.


I think that including headers, m-a and build essential would be a good
move for the developers. Other distros have out-of-the-box non-free and
proprietary apps/drivers/codecs, I would just like to see Debian offer a
complete base on that first iso. At least offering the means to
completely setup Debian form the get-go.


Richs
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:21 PM
"brian m. carlson"
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:53:24PM +0200, richs wrote:
I think that including headers, m-a and build essential would be a good
move for the developers. Other distros have out-of-the-box non-free and
proprietary apps/drivers/codecs, I would just like to see Debian offer a
complete base on that first iso. At least offering the means to
completely setup Debian form the get-go.


Non-free (and contrib) packages are not part of Debian and are therefore
not shipped on Debian CDs or DVDs. I understand your frustration with
not being able to use your wireless card out of the box; I have the same
problem, since my card (iwl3945) requires non-free firmware. However,
the Social Contract states very clearly that only Free Software can be
part of Debian.

Even if the packages you request were available on the first CD, you
still don't have the drivers that you would need to compile, since those
are in non-free or contrib and thus aren't on the CDs. Your best
chances of getting a working system out of the box are if Free drivers
without firmware are included into the kernel. If this is a serious
concern, I would recommend carefully selecting the hardware you buy for
optimal compatibility.

--
brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US
+1 713 440 7475 | http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc | My opinion only
troff on top of XML: http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc/code/thwack
OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187
 
Old 07-16-2008, 08:29 PM
Mike Hommey
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 08:21:14PM +0000, brian m. carlson wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:53:24PM +0200, richs wrote:
>> I think that including headers, m-a and build essential would be a good
>> move for the developers. Other distros have out-of-the-box non-free
>> and proprietary apps/drivers/codecs, I would just like to see Debian
>> offer a complete base on that first iso. At least offering the means
>> to completely setup Debian form the get-go.
>
> Non-free (and contrib) packages are not part of Debian and are therefore
> not shipped on Debian CDs or DVDs. I understand your frustration with
> not being able to use your wireless card out of the box; I have the same
> problem, since my card (iwl3945) requires non-free firmware. However,
> the Social Contract states very clearly that only Free Software can be
> part of Debian.
>
> Even if the packages you request were available on the first CD, you
> still don't have the drivers that you would need to compile, since those
> are in non-free or contrib and thus aren't on the CDs. Your best
> chances of getting a working system out of the box are if Free drivers
> without firmware are included into the kernel. If this is a serious
> concern, I would recommend carefully selecting the hardware you buy for
> optimal compatibility.

I'm wondering... do we have binary packages for all kernel modules we have
(free) -source packages for so that such kernel modules don't need to be
built by users ? If no, then maybe either they should exist or m-a and
other necessary stuff should be on the first CD, as well as the -source
packages. If yes, maybe they should be on the first CD if they are not
already.

Mike


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Old 07-16-2008, 09:15 PM
Frans Pop
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

richs wrote:
> Hi, basically I am requesting module-assistant, build-essential and the
> kernel headers for the default kernel on the first iso.

I really don't have a clue what you're going on about then.

If you check these pages, you'll see that all three package you name _are_
on the first CD and that means their dependencies are too.

Etch CD:
http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=build-essential&l=http%3A%2F%2Fcdimage.debian.org%2Fcdim age%2Frelease%2F4.0_r3%2Fi386%2Fjigdo-cd%2Fdebian-40r3-i386-CD-1.jigdo
Lenny Beta 2 CD:
http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=build-essential&l=http%3A%2F%2Fcdimage.debian.org%2Fcdim age%2Fweekly-builds%2Fi386%2Fjigdo-cd%2Fdebian-testing-i386-CD-1.jigdo
Weekly built CD:
http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=build-essential&l=http%3A%2F%2Fcdimage.debian.org%2Fcdim age%2Fweekly-builds%2Fi386%2Fjigdo-cd%2Fdebian-testing-i386-CD-1.jigdo

Cheers,
FJP
 
Old 07-16-2008, 10:23 PM
richs
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

Hi Fjp:

I am surprised that the dependencies are on the image, as I have always
been met with problems trying to install build-essential from the first iso.


I will post the output from the terminal on my next fresh install of
Lenny and Etch.


I can assure you that on an http download i386 iso, m-a is not.
http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=module-assistant+_i386

And on Lenny the latest kernel headers weren't available either.

richs


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Old 07-16-2008, 10:56 PM
Charles Plessy
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

Le Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 08:21:14PM +0000, brian m. carlson a écrit :
>
> Non-free (and contrib) packages are not part of Debian and are therefore
> not shipped on Debian CDs or DVDs. I understand your frustration with
> not being able to use your wireless card out of the box; I have the same
> problem, since my card (iwl3945) requires non-free firmware. However,
> the Social Contract states very clearly that only Free Software can be
> part of Debian.

Hi Brian,

the Social Contract does not forbid to ship non-Debian files on the same
medium as the Debian operatign system. I think that the problem is more
that many non-free programs do not have a licence that is compatible
with some widespread ways of distributing Debian, such as pressing it on
a CD and selling it.

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Old 07-17-2008, 05:37 AM
Frans Pop
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

On Thursday 17 July 2008, richs wrote:
> I can assure you that on an http download i386 iso, m-a is not.
> http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=module-assistant+_i386

You really need to check your facts better. If you use the links I
provided and just search the pages:

http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=build-essential&l=http%3A%2F%2Fcdimage.debian.org%2Fcdim age%2Frelease%2F4.0_r3%2Fi386%2Fjigdo-cd%2Fdebian-40r3-i386-CD-1.jigdo
17 Feb 2008;Debian GNU/Linux 4.0 r3 "Etch" - Official i386 CD Binary-1
20080217-11:50 (20080217)
pool/main/m/module-assistant/module-assistant_0.10.8_all.deb
pool/main/l/linux-latest-2.6/linux-headers-2.6-686_2.6.18+6etch3_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-latest-2.6/linux-headers-2.6-486_2.6.18+6etch3_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-2.6/linux-headers-2.6.18-6-686_2.6.18.dfsg.1-18etch1_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-2.6/linux-headers-2.6.18-6_2.6.18.dfsg.1-18etch1_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-2.6/linux-headers-2.6.18-6-486_2.6.18.dfsg.1-18etch1_i386.deb

http://atterer.net/jigdo/jigdo-search.php?q=build-essent&l=http%3A%2F%2Fcdimage.debian.org%2Fcdimage %2Flenny_di_beta2%2Fi386%2Fjigdo-cd%2Fdebian-LennyBeta2-i386-CD-1.jigdo
07 Jun 2008;Debian GNU/Linux LennyBeta2 "Lenny" - Official Beta i386 CD
Binary-1 20080607-17:43 (20080607)
pool/main/m/module-assistant/module-assistant_0.10.11.0_all.deb
pool/main/l/linux-latest-2.6/linux-headers-2.6-686_2.6.24+13_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-latest-2.6/linux-headers-2.6-486_2.6.24+13_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-2.6/linux-headers-2.6.24-1-686_2.6.24-7_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-2.6/linux-headers-2.6.24-1-common_2.6.24-7_i386.deb
pool/main/l/linux-2.6/linux-headers-2.6.24-1-486_2.6.24-7_i386.deb
(link for the Lenny Beta2 CD was wrong in my previous mail)

I'll let you check the weekly images yourself.

It looks like the search you tried is just broken.
 
Old 07-17-2008, 11:45 AM
Hendrik Sattler
 
Default Include on first iso: m-a, build essential, kernel headers

Zitat von "brian m. carlson" <sandals@crustytoothpaste.ath.cx>:


On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 09:53:24PM +0200, richs wrote:
I think that including headers, m-a and build essential would be a
good move for the developers. Other distros have out-of-the-box
non-free and proprietary apps/drivers/codecs, I would just like to
see Debian offer a complete base on that first iso. At least
offering the means to completely setup Debian form the get-go.


Non-free (and contrib) packages are not part of Debian and are therefore
not shipped on Debian CDs or DVDs. I understand your frustration with
not being able to use your wireless card out of the box; I have the same
problem, since my card (iwl3945) requires non-free firmware. However,
the Social Contract states very clearly that only Free Software can be
part of Debian.

Even if the packages you request were available on the first CD, you
still don't have the drivers that you would need to compile, since those
are in non-free or contrib and thus aren't on the CDs.


Please read the _whole_ mail!
He does not request inclusion of non-free software, just the ability
to compile them with packages from the first CD. The non-free
data/sources come from his own media, e.g. by USB stick.

A valid request, I'd say...

HS




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