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Old 07-16-2008, 12:27 PM
William Pitcock
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 14:11 +0200, maximilian attems wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 07:11:06AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote:
> >
> > Without dom0, lenny will be unusable for several installations of mine
> > which presently run an ugly combination of etch's dom0 and lenny's
> > kernel. I would like to do that in a different way.
> >
> > If we will not see dom0 in linux-2.6 on Debian, we should at least have
> > a 2.6.18 tree with dom0.
>
> no.
> we will not have 2 different linux-2.6 versions in Lenny.
> please think of the implications before throwing out suggestions.
>

What about the implications of introducing feature regressions? The
patches to enable dom0 without pv-ops are available, yet they are
unwanted.

Wouldn't it be possible to build with both pv-ops and non-pv-ops for
dom0?

At any rate, please make it well documented where waldi's kernels are if
you intend to not have dom0 in 2.6.26.

William
 
Old 07-16-2008, 12:27 PM
William Pitcock
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, 2008-07-16 at 14:11 +0200, maximilian attems wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 07:11:06AM -0500, William Pitcock wrote:
> >
> > Without dom0, lenny will be unusable for several installations of mine
> > which presently run an ugly combination of etch's dom0 and lenny's
> > kernel. I would like to do that in a different way.
> >
> > If we will not see dom0 in linux-2.6 on Debian, we should at least have
> > a 2.6.18 tree with dom0.
>
> no.
> we will not have 2 different linux-2.6 versions in Lenny.
> please think of the implications before throwing out suggestions.
>

What about the implications of introducing feature regressions? The
patches to enable dom0 without pv-ops are available, yet they are
unwanted.

Wouldn't it be possible to build with both pv-ops and non-pv-ops for
dom0?

At any rate, please make it well documented where waldi's kernels are if
you intend to not have dom0 in 2.6.26.

William
 
Old 07-16-2008, 12:42 PM
Gunnar Wolf
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

Goswin von Brederlow dijo [Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:10:30PM +0200]:
> > I don't think that any of the alternatives are valid candidates yet:
> > - Linux-Vserver, OpenVZ: clearly not the same use case.
> > - Virtualbox, qemu: poor performance under some workloads.
>
> Unusable for production work. Emulation is just too slow. The group of
> people that can live with that much slow down compared to xen is
> miniscule.

Just to state the obvious: I understand your lines applie to
virtualbox and qemu, not to linux-vserver, which is completely usable
for production work - although it's a completely different approach,
completely useless to people who really want seemingly independent
full machines (i.e. different OSs or kernel features).

> > - KVM: is very promising but is it really a valid alternative *now*
> > for current Xen users?
>
> KVM needs hardware support and even then its I/O is slower. It also
> deadlocks the I/O under I/O load from time to time.
>
> I could live with the I/O slowdown but nothing will make hardware
> magically appear.

Please explain further on this. Do you mean that xen can run
paravirtualized hosts without the hardware features (i.e. the lesser
CPUs sold nowadays) while kvm does require VMX/SVM?

I have not done extensive testing yet (I'm a newbie to both
approaches), but I don't feel the slowdown you mention when under kvm.

Greetings,

--
Gunnar Wolf - gwolf@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244
PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23
Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF


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Old 07-16-2008, 01:07 PM
Samuel Thibault
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

Gunnar Wolf, le Wed 16 Jul 2008 07:42:37 -0500, a écrit :
> > I could live with the I/O slowdown but nothing will make hardware
> > magically appear.
>
> Please explain further on this. Do you mean that xen can run
> paravirtualized hosts without the hardware features (i.e. the lesser
> CPUs sold nowadays) while kvm does require VMX/SVM?

Precisely.

Samuel


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Old 07-16-2008, 01:20 PM
Goswin von Brederlow
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@gwolf.org> writes:

> Goswin von Brederlow dijo [Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 11:10:30PM +0200]:
>> > I don't think that any of the alternatives are valid candidates yet:
>> > - Linux-Vserver, OpenVZ: clearly not the same use case.
>> > - Virtualbox, qemu: poor performance under some workloads.
>>
>> Unusable for production work. Emulation is just too slow. The group of
>> people that can live with that much slow down compared to xen is
>> miniscule.
>
> Just to state the obvious: I understand your lines applie to
> virtualbox and qemu, not to linux-vserver, which is completely usable
> for production work - although it's a completely different approach,
> completely useless to people who really want seemingly independent
> full machines (i.e. different OSs or kernel features).

yes, obviously.

>> > - KVM: is very promising but is it really a valid alternative *now*
>> > for current Xen users?
>>
>> KVM needs hardware support and even then its I/O is slower. It also
>> deadlocks the I/O under I/O load from time to time.
>>
>> I could live with the I/O slowdown but nothing will make hardware
>> magically appear.
>
> Please explain further on this. Do you mean that xen can run
> paravirtualized hosts without the hardware features (i.e. the lesser
> CPUs sold nowadays) while kvm does require VMX/SVM?

Yes, xen with paravirtualized hosts runs on cpus without hardware
virtualization.

> I have not done extensive testing yet (I'm a newbie to both
> approaches), but I don't feel the slowdown you mention when under kvm.

The "normal" kvm io uses the qemu device emulation and is dead slow
and unsecure. As such it is pretty much out of the question for
production work.

But kvm can also use the virtio drivers that raise the network speed
to slightly over 40MB/s. Disk speed is slower but that might just be
my laptops disk.

Now with xen on the other hand I get up to 180MB/s throughput on the
network interface.

> Greetings,

MfG
Goswin


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Old 07-16-2008, 04:53 PM
Teodor
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>> > > See: http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
>> > > I think x86-64 xen patches are going in for 2.6.27..
>
> Lenny will not support 64bit, no dom0.. so basicly lenny can only be used as
> a 32bit domU .. unless people build/get some other dom0 kernel.

What about the patches for x86-64 support in domU? If these are going
to be included in 2.6.27 does it mean they qualify [1] to be included
in the kernel for lenny?

Thanks


[1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianKernelPatchAcceptanceGuidelines
 
Old 07-16-2008, 04:53 PM
Teodor
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
>> > > See: http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
>> > > I think x86-64 xen patches are going in for 2.6.27..
>
> Lenny will not support 64bit, no dom0.. so basicly lenny can only be used as
> a 32bit domU .. unless people build/get some other dom0 kernel.

What about the patches for x86-64 support in domU? If these are going
to be included in 2.6.27 does it mean they qualify [1] to be included
in the kernel for lenny?

Thanks


[1] http://wiki.debian.org/DebianKernelPatchAcceptanceGuidelines
 
Old 07-16-2008, 05:26 PM
maximilian attems
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 07:53:52PM +0300, Teodor wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
> >> > > See: http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> >> > > I think x86-64 xen patches are going in for 2.6.27..
> >
> > Lenny will not support 64bit, no dom0.. so basicly lenny can only be used as
> > a 32bit domU .. unless people build/get some other dom0 kernel.
>
> What about the patches for x86-64 support in domU? If these are going
> to be included in 2.6.27 does it mean they qualify [1] to be included
> in the kernel for lenny?

no.
please read a thread before posting to it, that question is already
answered twice.

--
maks


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Old 07-16-2008, 05:26 PM
maximilian attems
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 07:53:52PM +0300, Teodor wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
> >> > > See: http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> >> > > I think x86-64 xen patches are going in for 2.6.27..
> >
> > Lenny will not support 64bit, no dom0.. so basicly lenny can only be used as
> > a 32bit domU .. unless people build/get some other dom0 kernel.
>
> What about the patches for x86-64 support in domU? If these are going
> to be included in 2.6.27 does it mean they qualify [1] to be included
> in the kernel for lenny?

no.
please read a thread before posting to it, that question is already
answered twice.

--
maks


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Old 07-16-2008, 06:44 PM
Pasi Kärkkäinen
 
Default Xen status in lenny?

On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 07:26:48PM +0200, maximilian attems wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 07:53:52PM +0300, Teodor wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Pasi Kärkkäinen <pasik@iki.fi> wrote:
> > >> > > See: http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenParavirtOps
> > >> > > I think x86-64 xen patches are going in for 2.6.27..
> > >
> > > Lenny will not support 64bit, no dom0.. so basicly lenny can only be used as
> > > a 32bit domU .. unless people build/get some other dom0 kernel.
> >
> > What about the patches for x86-64 support in domU? If these are going
> > to be included in 2.6.27 does it mean they qualify [1] to be included
> > in the kernel for lenny?
>
> no.
> please read a thread before posting to it, that question is already
> answered twice.
>

btw out of curiosity do you know if the kernel patch policy was different
earlier (for etch), because xen kernel for etch (2.6.18-*-xen-686) contains
non-upstream xen patches (from xensource)..

-- Pasi


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