FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > Debian > Debian Development

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 07-05-2008, 06:42 AM
Daniel Dickinson
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

For discussion:

Gnome, KDE, and XFCE are the the top three desktops used in debian and
cover most users of desktops in debian.

They all use xdg .desktop-based menus as their main menu.

xdg .desktop-based menus are not covered by policy.

This means some maintainers refuse to use them (see bug #478954 and
#478916).

The main menu (meaning the primary menu used for program selection; I
don't include quick access menus which have a small selection of often
used programs) should either be the debian-menu or all packages which
are supposed to have menu entires should also be required to
supply .desktop files.

Having a dual-menu scheme in policy is ugly.

Currently the debian-menu is a submenu of the main menu, called
'Debian'.

Having the main menu, where users, especially new users, expect
to find all their programs not be canonical is also ugly. Having
the canonical menu as a submenu (currently the case) means the programs
are at least available but you have to know to look there when you can't
find it in the main menu, and looking in two places to find a program
is a pain. You could always look in the debian menu always, but then why
have the main menu?

menu-xdg provides the 'Debian' menu (or main menu if that is the choice
debian makes) from debian-menu entries as an xdg-compliant menu and
entries.

desktops that want to have .desktop entries for specific programs ought
to be responsible for creating the code that merges the debian main
menu with their main menu (e.g. in menu-xdg), rather than forcing every
other application in debian to do their work for them.

Regards,

Daniel
--
And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early,
now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or
strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore
GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org
No more sea shells: Daniel's Weblog http://cshore.wordpress.com
 
Old 07-05-2008, 08:15 AM
William Pitcock
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

Hi,

On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 02:42 -0400, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
> For discussion:
>
> Gnome, KDE, and XFCE are the the top three desktops used in debian and
> cover most users of desktops in debian.
>
> They all use xdg .desktop-based menus as their main menu.
>
> xdg .desktop-based menus are not covered by policy.

Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards
menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for
their menus.

I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has
been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and
many other distros.

However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution
though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support
XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)

Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for
the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this
seems like the easiest solution.

William
 
Old 07-05-2008, 08:25 AM
"Paul Wise"
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pitcock
<nenolod@sacredspiral.co.uk> wrote:

> Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards
> menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for
> their menus.
>
> I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has
> been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and
> many other distros.
>
> However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution
> though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support
> XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)
>
> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for
> the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this
> seems like the easiest solution.

+1

Same for defoma/fontconfig.

--
bye,
pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 07-05-2008, 08:31 AM
Kurt Roeckx
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

On Sat, Jul 05, 2008 at 02:42:27AM -0400, Daniel Dickinson wrote:
> For discussion:
>
> Gnome, KDE, and XFCE are the the top three desktops used in debian and
> cover most users of desktops in debian.
>
> They all use xdg .desktop-based menus as their main menu.

You already opened a bug against policy for this: #484656, add it to the
CC.


Kurt


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 07-05-2008, 08:46 AM
Russ Allbery
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

William Pitcock <nenolod@sacredspiral.co.uk> writes:

> Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards
> menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for
> their menus.

You mean the specification that is followed mostly in the breech by actual
implementations and to which KDE at least has a whole ton of extensions?

The XDG menu specification isn't anywhere near formalized enough or
sufficiently well-followed in Debian to be meaningfully standardized in
Debian Policy. If people want to see it become Policy, they need to fix
how it's implemented in the archive first, which is probably going to
require significant work with Gnome, KDE, and the XDG standardization
process upstream. Right now, different implementations can't even agree
on the permitted keys, let alone on the menu categories.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 07-05-2008, 08:54 AM
Thomas Viehmann
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

Paul Wise wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pitcock
> <nenolod@sacredspiral.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG standards
>> menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be using them for
>> their menus.
>>
>> I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it has
>> been replaced with a standard used and supported by many upstreams and
>> many other distros.
>>
>> However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better solution
>> though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which do not support
>> XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)
>>
>> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop entries for
>> the menu in the main menu namespace and not the 'Debian' namespace; this
>> seems like the easiest solution.

> +1

I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it lacks
people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared to
creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions, and
come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to do
shortly after a release...

Another issue besides categories preventing the "easiest solution" to be
a feasible one is what to do with generic names: You would not want to
have half a dozen "Text editor" entries in a menu but you would not want
Debian to unnecessarily diverge from generic naming schemes or drop
generic names that upstreams use, either.

Suggestions of the "do we need all the WMs" variety may appear to point
out less work-intensive ways but really just cover up that developing a
good policy and conversion is the much larger issue than where to put
files of which format and start a useless side discussion.

Kind regards

T.
--
Thomas Viehmann, http://thomas.viehmann.net/


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 07-05-2008, 09:00 AM
Russ Allbery
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

Russ Allbery <rra@debian.org> writes:

> You mean the specification that is followed mostly in the breech by
> actual implementations and to which KDE at least has a whole ton of
> extensions?

Or in the breach, even. Although in the breech does sum up my opinion on
parts of it.

Some examples:

http://lintian.debian.org/tags/desktop-entry-contains-unknown-key.html

(and that doesn't include the ones that aren't listed in the standard but
that Lintian has just given up on because they're so widespread, like
Actions)

http://lintian.debian.org/tags/desktop-entry-invalid-category.html

(and that doesn't count Application and GNUstep, which are also invalid
but which I just gave up on since they're used all over the place)

http://lintian.debian.org/tags/desktop-entry-lacks-main-category.html
http://lintian.debian.org/tags/desktop-entry-uses-reserved-category.html

And that's just the stuff that Lintian happens to check for. I shudder to
think what the results would be if Lintian started doing a complete syntax
check against the standard, looking for things like ending list
attributes with a semicolon the way they're required to be.

Not to mention that, as standards go, the XDG menu and desktop standard is
a rather poor one. It's not very well-written, it's not very clear, it's
huge (tons of different keys with different meanings, sometimes
cryptically explained), and the menu category list in particular is
horribly scattershot and confusing.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-REQUEST@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org
 
Old 07-05-2008, 09:11 AM
William Pitcock
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

Hi,

On Sat, 2008-07-05 at 01:46 -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> You mean the specification that is followed mostly in the breech by actual
> implementations and to which KDE at least has a whole ton of extensions?
>

I think the XDG standard is actually *based* on the Desktop Entry spec
from KDE1/KDE2, but this is only based on vague memories of
writing .desktop/.icon files back in 1999-2003.

So, it doesn't surprise me that KDE implements more than the spec. But I
haven't used KDE3 much, so I don't know if it's still the way it was
last time I touched KDE, which was in the Debian 2.2/3.0 days...

Or maybe the Desktop Entry spec is based on the minimal ground seen
between both KDE and GNOME, in which case, it's sad that it hasn't
improved since that point...

William
 
Old 07-05-2008, 09:52 AM
Daniel Dickinson
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:54:30 +0200
Thomas Viehmann <tv@beamnet.de> wrote:

> >>
> >> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop
> >> entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the
> >> 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution.
>
> > +1
>
> I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it
> lacks people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared
> to creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions,
> and come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to
> do shortly after a release...

I've been approaching this as a sort-of-integrator point of view (I've
been working on systems I've been giving away, and have been developing
automation for the installation process that happens after
debian-installer, and will be moving that to using debian-installer
once I have figured out what I need. The results of this will probably
be in lenny+1, but in the meantime I've got a post-install setup that
lets me install a 'standard' system, and then run the post-install and
end up with what I want) rather than dd point-of-view (because I'm not,
et). In any event if there is already a nice summary of what needs
doing, and any tips on how to do it, I'm game to work on it for lenny+1.

I'd still like to see the debian menu as the main menu for lenny
though ... though I may be the only one.

--
And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early,
now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or
strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore
GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org
No more sea shells: Daniel's Weblog http://cshore.wordpress.com
 
Old 07-05-2008, 09:55 AM
Daniel Dickinson
 
Default gnome, kde, xfce use non-policy main menu

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 10:54:30 +0200
Thomas Viehmann <tv@beamnet.de> wrote:

> Paul Wise wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 4:15 PM, William Pitcock
> > <nenolod@sacredspiral.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> Honestly, policy really needs to be updated to use the XDG
> >> standards menu spec, and every WM at this point really should be
> >> using them for their menus.
> >>
> >> I think the debian-menu system should be seen as legacy, since it
> >> has been replaced with a standard used and supported by many
> >> upstreams and many other distros.
> >>
> >> However, there's a few places where debian-menu is a better
> >> solution though. (It can be used to build menus for many WMs which
> >> do not support XDG, but honestly, do we need all these WMs?)
> >>
> >> Another solution would be to make debian-menu build .desktop
> >> entries for the menu in the main menu namespace and not the
> >> 'Debian' namespace; this seems like the easiest solution.
>
> > +1
>
> I don't think that the idea of superseding menu lacks support, it
> lacks people doing the work (and the coding part seems small compared
> to creating a mapping the categories, preferably in both directions,
> and come up with a sane policy). Also, this seems to be something to
> do shortly after a release...

Which makes coming up with sane policy around now a good idea,
methinks. (So development can be underway and implemented by lenny+1).

Regards,

Daniel

--
And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early,
now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or
strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore
GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org
No more sea shells: Daniel's Weblog http://cshore.wordpress.com
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 09:42 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org