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Old 06-28-2008, 02:15 AM
Charles Plessy
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

Le Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:31:54AM +0200, Franklin PIAT a écrit :
> The funny (and *angering*) thing is, those users who
> actually notice triggers are likely to complain :
>
> "Why the Hell do you run those triggers, it wastes my time !"


> sid:~# time dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/manpages_3.00-1_all.deb
> Selecting previously deselected package manpages.
> (Reading database ... 26933 files and directories currently installed.)
> Unpacking manpages (from .../manpages_3.00-1_all.deb) ...
> Setting up manpages (3.00-1) ...
> Processing triggers for man-db ...

Hi all,

Isn't the problem of these users that in the above output, the only
sentence that contains jargon is the one about the "triggers", and they
can not see why triggers are doing someghing good for them?. How to
understand the last sentence? Has man-db one or more triggers? Is
triggers a verb or a noun? What is the analogy between the triggers of
dpkg and those of databasees or firearms?

Maybe "Processing triggers" could be replaced by a 2-3 word summary of
what the trigger is really doing?

Have a nice day,

--
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Old 06-28-2008, 09:58 AM
Adam Borowski
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:15:46AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:31:54AM +0200, Franklin PIAT a écrit :
> > The funny (and *angering*) thing is, those users who
> > actually notice triggers are likely to complain :
> >
> > "Why the Hell do you run those triggers, it wastes my time !"

> Maybe "Processing triggers" could be replaced by a 2-3 word summary of
> what the trigger is really doing?

What about "Processing delayed configuration"?

--
1KB // Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor:
// Never attribute to stupidity what can be
// adequately explained by malice.


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Old 06-28-2008, 10:35 AM
Ben Finney
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl> writes:

> On Sat, Jun 28, 2008 at 11:15:46AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> > Le Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:31:54AM +0200, Franklin PIAT a écrit :
> > > The funny (and *angering*) thing is, those users who
> > > actually notice triggers are likely to complain :
> > >
> > > "Why the Hell do you run those triggers, it wastes my time !"
>
> > Maybe "Processing triggers" could be replaced by a 2-3 word
> > summary of what the trigger is really doing?
>
> What about "Processing delayed configuration"?

Good idea, but perhaps "delayed" carries too negative a connotation
(in English). Better might be "deferred" or "pending".

How about "Resuming deferred installation steps" or similar?

--
“What I resent is that the range of your vision should be the |
` limit of my action.” —Henry James |
_o__) |
Ben Finney


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Old 06-28-2008, 09:11 PM
"Franklin PIAT"
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

On Sat, June 28, 2008 15:12, Christian Perrier wrote:
> Quoting Franklin PIAT (fpiat@bigfoot.com):
>
>> That's true, IMHO. The funny (and *angering*) thing is, those users who
>> actually notice triggers are likely to complain :
>>
>> "Why the Hell do you run those triggers, it wastes my time !"
>
> Are you basing this assumption on somethign really experienced?

I'll answer your third point first : Yes, I wish we avoid potential
triggers abuses, even if it's for good will .

I'm not just afraid of what people complains about. I am also afraid of
those hundreds of little things that can potentially get people pissed
off.

> Indeed, when I run an "apt<whatever> dist-upgrade", I just launch the
> command, look at the list of actions that are planned, hit "Y" to
> confirm and just switch to another window and come back some hours
> later.

When I run "apt-get install foo", I want it to be damed fast, since I need
to continue my work.

[..]
> I understand the point in your suggestion and we certainly should be
> careful about potential triggers abuse (just like debconf abuse I'm
> hunting here and there) but I don't really think that the complaints
> will come from our users.

Franklin


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Old 06-28-2008, 09:37 PM
Raphael Geissert
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

Franklin PIAT wrote:
> On Sat, June 28, 2008 15:12, Christian Perrier wrote:
>> Indeed, when I run an "apt<whatever> dist-upgrade", I just launch the
>> command, look at the list of actions that are planned, hit "Y" to
>> confirm and just switch to another window and come back some hours
>> later.
>
> When I run "apt-get install foo", I want it to be damed fast, since I need
> to continue my work.

But wasn't the cronjob actually a resources waster regenerating the database
even when not needed? (note that I don't really know how the cronjob used
to work, I'm guessing here).

Cheers,
Raphael



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Old 06-29-2008, 10:43 AM
"Bernhard R. Link"
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

* Franklin PIAT <fpiat@bigfoot.com> [080628 23:12]:
> > Indeed, when I run an "apt<whatever> dist-upgrade", I just launch the
> > command, look at the list of actions that are planned, hit "Y" to
> > confirm and just switch to another window and come back some hours
> > later.
>
> When I run "apt-get install foo", I want it to be damed fast, since I need
> to continue my work.

I think this is a very important usability factor.

Please note that there are not only experiened users that have
confidence in their understanding of the system and the system itself
but also people not having that background.

Fiddling with package management is usually quite a critical point: You
often do not do what exactly it does, so reverting it manually will not
be possible. Thus if you lack confidence, installing or removing
packages means quite some stress, and the earlier it is finished the
earlier you leave that unhealthy state.

At least that is my experience when using other systems like Yast on
SuSe: There are some interfaces I do not fully understand, it does some
things related to what I asked it, and then is writes several minutes
(at least it feels like that) with doing things that seem totally
unrelated (I guess it just rewrites some config and has suboptimal
triggers when to write what).

I guess unexperienced people might feel the same when seeing this
triggers. (Even I are sometimes at loss why it does specific things,
for example updating mandb after I try to install a package but that
failed).

Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link
--
"Never contain programs so few bugs, as when no debugging tools are available!"
Niklaus Wirth


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Old 06-29-2008, 02:04 PM
Andreas Tille
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008, Christian Perrier wrote:


Are you basing this assumption on somethign really experienced?


It is even documented on debian-devel:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/06/msg00117.html


Indeed, when I run an "apt<whatever> dist-upgrade", I just launch the
command, look at the list of actions that are planned, hit "Y" to
confirm and just switch to another window and come back some hours
later.


Well, I have more than one window on my desktop and sometimes look at
the process that continuosely spits out lines I never realised before ...


In short, I don't really care to read what's happening or displayed on
my screen..:-)


I'd regard this as a grand fathers phenomenon: Beeing unable to
concentrate on more than one thing. ;-))))


Do you think that real users will worry about mysterious actions
happening after package installs?


Honestly, I think so. Especially new users who are not yet comfortable
with the fact that in Debian most things went very smoothly and you
do not need to observe continuosely.

Kind regards

Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de


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Old 06-30-2008, 12:57 AM
Charles Plessy
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

>> Maybe "Processing triggers" could be replaced by a 2-3 word summary of
>> what the trigger is really doing?

> What about "Processing delayed configuration"?

Well, I was originally thinking about someting specific for each
trigger, but your proposition is probably sufficient and simpler to
implement.

Have a nice day,

--
Charles


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Old 06-30-2008, 09:16 AM
Thibaut Paumard
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

Le 28 juin 08 04:15, Charles Plessy a crit :


Le Fri, Jun 27, 2008 at 10:31:54AM +0200, Franklin PIAT a écrit :

sid:~# time dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/manpages_3.00-1_all.deb
Selecting previously deselected package manpages.
(Reading database ... 26933 files and directories currently
installed.)

Unpacking manpages (from .../manpages_3.00-1_all.deb) ...
Setting up manpages (3.00-1) ...
Processing triggers for man-db ...


[...]

Maybe "Processing triggers" could be replaced by a 2-3 word summary of
what the trigger is really doing?



I don't know what the best practice is, but in "my" trigger action
(update-yorickdoc), I print one sentence, that would come right after
the "Processing triggers for yorick-doc" line:


Building yorick documentation in ....

So the user knows exactly what happens.

In addition, there is an option in a conffile to deactivate this
automatic re-building (in /etc/yorick-doc). If automatic rebuilding
is opted-out, you still get the "Processing triggers" message, and
one line saying that nothing will be done. So you just loose a very
short time while a no-op is being triggered.


Best regards, Thibaut.


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Old 06-30-2008, 09:56 AM
Bernd Eckenfels
 
Default Dpkg triggers and user experience, aka "How do I disable those triggers" side effect.

In article <1214812383.10373.12.camel@holly.codehelp> you wrote:
> delayed from when? I think it is better to extend the message and be
> more verbose. I also think that some indication of *why* things were
> delayed would solve the problem.

I must admit i dont know how those triggers work, but I asume it is

"Remebering to process xxx once at end of installation"?

(In that way defering is better than postponing)

However the question is, if the message is only telling us, that it is not
doing anything, why not just skipping it?

Gruss
Bernd


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