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Old 09-15-2011, 12:12 AM
"Thomas Dukes"
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

> -----Original Message-----
> From: centos-bounces@centos.org
> [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Always Learning
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:07 PM
> To: CentOS mailing list
> Subject: Re: [CentOS] Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7
>
>
> On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 19:05 -0400, Thomas Dukes wrote:
>
> > SUCCESS!! Everything working, even the 'roll your own' apps!!
>
> What did you expect ? Its not Windoze ;-)

You know, 'Always Learning' is the perfect username! I'm 56 yrs. old and I
learn something everyday on this list. Been doing the Linux thing since the
mid-90's. I had a two phone line, Wildcat BBS connected the internet pulling
newsgroups, running Frontdoor, etc. I can say without a doubt everything
CentOS/RHEL is doing is just UFR (probably can't say that on the list)!!

If we could just get a Linux based Quickbooks, I'd never run a windoze
system again!!

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Old 09-15-2011, 12:43 AM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 20:12 -0400, Thomas Dukes wrote:

> You know, 'Always Learning' is the perfect username! I'm 56 yrs. old and I
> learn something everyday on this list. Been doing the Linux thing since the
> mid-90's.

Blush, blush, I'm older.Been on Linux, properly, since 1 June 2010 and
absolutely love it. Its so adult compared to Windoze.

> I had a two phone line, Wildcat BBS connected the internet pulling
> newsgroups, running Frontdoor, etc. I can say without a doubt everything
> CentOS/RHEL is doing is just UFR (probably can't say that on the list)!!
>
> If we could just get a Linux based Quickbooks, I'd never run a windoze
> system again!!

One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete commercial
accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a piece of cake to do
well (meaning easily) but a little time consuming. The only difficulty I
can think of is printing things locally.

--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:03 AM
"Thomas Dukes"
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

> -----Original Message-----
> From: centos-bounces@centos.org
> [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Always Learning
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 8:44 PM
> To: CentOS mailing list
> Subject: Re: [CentOS] Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7
>
>
> On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 20:12 -0400, Thomas Dukes wrote:
>
> > You know, 'Always Learning' is the perfect username! I'm 56
> yrs. old
> > and I learn something everyday on this list. Been doing the Linux
> > thing since the mid-90's.
>
> Blush, blush, I'm older.Been on Linux, properly, since 1 June
> 2010 and absolutely love it. Its so adult compared to Windoze.
>
> > I had a two phone line, Wildcat BBS connected the internet pulling
> > newsgroups, running Frontdoor, etc. I can say without a doubt
> > everything CentOS/RHEL is doing is just UFR (probably can't
> say that on the list)!!
> >
> > If we could just get a Linux based Quickbooks, I'd never
> run a windoze
> > system again!!
>
> One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete
> commercial accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a
> piece of cake to do well (meaning easily) but a little time
> consuming. The only difficulty I can think of is printing
> things locally.

I love the challenge. I'm a hacker from way back. While this sort of stuff
isn't humorous now days and since I've 'grown up', I understand why. Still,
I love it!!

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Old 09-15-2011, 01:08 AM
John R Pierce
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On 09/14/11 6:03 PM, Thomas Dukes wrote:
>> One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete
>> > commercial accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a
>> > piece of cake to do well (meaning easily) but a little time
>> > consuming. The only difficulty I can think of is printing
>> > things locally.
> I love the challenge. I'm a hacker from way back. While this sort of stuff
> isn't humorous now days and since I've 'grown up', I understand why. Still,
> I love it!!

an accounting system thats in plain HTML would be incredibly clunky to
use. you really want to do this in ajax/jquery or whatever so its more
interactive

also, I'd suggest using postgresql for better data integrity, and
anything-but-php (Python?) for better webside security.

--
john r pierce N 37, W 122
santa cruz ca mid-left coast

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Old 09-15-2011, 01:39 AM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 18:08 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:

> an accounting system thats in plain HTML would be incredibly clunky to
> use. you really want to do this in ajax/jquery or whatever so its more
> interactive

No thank you. HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL are my chosen tools for my
systems.

I have written 20+ complete systems using these and found them to be
fast and very effective. Everyone who has seen my HTML, CSS, PHP, MySQL
systems has been favourably impressed (me too!). MySQL is a fast
database system. Never ever used a SQL join or view, just well designed
databases with carefully planned tables - that is the art of good
programming.

Ajax/Jquery is someone else's parametrised programming language. It adds
complexity and overhead to what is fundamentally a very basic task. Ajax
etc. seem to appeal to people who are not good (or natural) programmers.
Ajax etc. is like programming with boxing gloves on and taking several
weeks to do it. If they want to use it, let them.

> also, I'd suggest using postgresql for better data integrity, and
> anything-but-php (Python?) for better webside security.

I have been using MySQL on Linux for about 4 years and never had a
problem. What security issues has PHP ?


--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


_______________________________________________
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Old 09-15-2011, 02:17 AM
Craig White
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 18:08 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 09/14/11 6:03 PM, Thomas Dukes wrote:
> >> One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete
> >> > commercial accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a
> >> > piece of cake to do well (meaning easily) but a little time
> >> > consuming. The only difficulty I can think of is printing
> >> > things locally.
> > I love the challenge. I'm a hacker from way back. While this sort of stuff
> > isn't humorous now days and since I've 'grown up', I understand why. Still,
> > I love it!!
>
> an accounting system thats in plain HTML would be incredibly clunky to
> use. you really want to do this in ajax/jquery or whatever so its more
> interactive
>
> also, I'd suggest using postgresql for better data integrity, and
> anything-but-php (Python?) for better webside security.
----
to each his own...

I put my customer on WebERP (http://www.weberp.com)

He has used in the last 15 years...
Real World Accounting (since bought by Great Plains - bought by MS)
Peachtree Accounting
BusinessWorks
Cougar Mountain
Demand

I handled all of the data import/transitions from one to the next with
the exception of Cougar Mountain => Demand because the woman who sold
him on that was a previous technical support manager for Cougar
Mountain.

Anyway, the one he has liked the most is the one that he didn't pay for
- WebERP

Before anyone gets the idea that this is all wine and roses, there are
some shortcomings with WebERP, largely due to the fact that they seem to
do continual releases and never really have a 'stable' version
(regardless of what they say). That meant to me that I had to fix about
10-15 different things and needless to say I have no intentions of
upgrading at this point (now 2+ years down the road). I have more gripes
about WebERP but they are not entirely significant (with the exception
that to 'extend' the featureset of WebERP, I used Ruby on Rails instead
of PHP because I can do significantly better code in one quarter of the
time).

WebApps are clearly the future - it's hard to justify specialized
server/client applications (installation, limited choice of clients,
maintenance, licensing) and it seems that the future will offer 2
choices... SAAS or run your own.

My own take on it... 'plain html' accounting is just fine. This company
has 4 retail stores, each with a warehouse and relatively low skilled
computer users entering orders. Print jobs are downloaded (or e-mailed
PDF files). This is NOT a POS system (then again, neither is
Quickbooks). To keep the PHP reasonably secure, it requires HTTPS and
access authorization is done by LDAP authz so if you don't have a
username and password on his system, you can't get the login screen. Of
course the server is kept up to date.

Ajax/jquery definitely ups the quality of appearance, sometimes ups the
quality of the UI but definitely slows down the application and is just
another demonstration of all that glitters isn't necessarily gold.

As for Paul's expressed notions... It would take a fairly massive amount
of man hours to produce a fully functional dual entry accounting package
for widespread business use. Before you decide on an environment, you
would probably want to commit to test driven development and MVC which
almost invites the use of a framework (Cake/Django/RoR). Personally I am
biased towards RoR but starting a large scale project in ruby, php or
python without using one of the frameworks at this point would be a
really poor choice. There are a number of PHP based accounting systems
out there which you could probably fork but why? They all missed the
boat somewhere, somehow.

Craig


--
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dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.

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Old 09-15-2011, 02:32 AM
John R Pierce
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On 09/14/11 6:39 PM, Always Learning wrote:
> Ajax/Jquery is someone else's parametrised programming language. It adds
> complexity and overhead to what is fundamentally a very basic task. Ajax
> etc. seem to appeal to people who are not good (or natural) programmers.
> Ajax etc. is like programming with boxing gloves on and taking several
> weeks to do it. If they want to use it, let them.

Ajax is not a programming language, its a technique of implementing the
client (browser) side of your applications in JavaScript, which is the
programming language.

ever use gmail or google documents? thats ajax. its interactive
within the USER BROWSER without requiring round trips to the web server
for every little operation such as summing up the checks entered in a
form as they are being entered. An Ajax accounting program could be
interactive like Quickbooks is, as opposed to fill in a static form and
hit submit for every little action.

And, if you've never used a SQL join, you don't know the first thing
about *relational* databases, you've been using SQL as though it was a
simple flat table ISAM, DBase-style circa 1983. Might as well use
BerkeleyDB for that, its even faster and lighter weight.

but, whatever. its your project, have at it.


--
john r pierce N 37, W 122
santa cruz ca mid-left coast

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Old 09-15-2011, 02:33 AM
"Thomas Dukes"
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

> -----Original Message-----
> From: centos-bounces@centos.org
> [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org] On Behalf Of Always Learning
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 9:40 PM
> To: CentOS mailing list
> Subject: Re: [CentOS] Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7
>
>
> On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 18:08 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
>
> > an accounting system thats in plain HTML would be
> incredibly clunky to
> > use. you really want to do this in ajax/jquery or whatever so its
> > more interactive
>
> No thank you. HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL are my chosen tools
> for my systems.
>
> I have written 20+ complete systems using these and found
> them to be fast and very effective. Everyone who has seen my
> HTML, CSS, PHP, MySQL systems has been favourably impressed
> (me too!). MySQL is a fast database system. Never ever used a
> SQL join or view, just well designed databases with carefully
> planned tables - that is the art of good programming.
>
> Ajax/Jquery is someone else's parametrised programming
> language. It adds complexity and overhead to what is
> fundamentally a very basic task. Ajax etc. seem to appeal to
> people who are not good (or natural) programmers.
> Ajax etc. is like programming with boxing gloves on and
> taking several weeks to do it. If they want to use it, let them.
>
> > also, I'd suggest using postgresql for better data integrity, and
> > anything-but-php (Python?) for better webside security.
>
> I have been using MySQL on Linux for about 4 years and never
> had a problem. What security issues has PHP ?

I, like you have been using mysql/php for ecommerce since 2003. Never had
and issue except RHEL/CentOS is about a release behind everyone else.
Stability is one thing, holding back is another when Fedora is 3 or 4
release ahead. Again, not CentOS's fault.

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Old 09-15-2011, 03:07 AM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 19:17 -0700, Craig White wrote:

... snip interesting posting ....

> WebApps are clearly the future - it's hard to justify specialized
> server/client applications (installation, limited choice of clients,
> maintenance, licensing) and it seems that the future will offer 2
> choices... SAAS or run your own.

That is the way I see things. Web runs anywhere. Otherwise specific
application software (usually costing money), licensing involvement,
software dependency etc. Grab a reasonable browser and start using the
application!


> My own take on it... 'plain html' accounting is just fine.

Mine are a bit more than 'plain'. I use CSS. However accounting is
basically entering or capturing the data; then doing basic tasks like
orders, invoices, statements etc. Add some complicated things like
credit control and specific discount structures for individual
customers. Branch-out in to name, address and other contract details,
add the mailing list facility. Add stock control, automatic re-ordering
etc.

The best bits that make the directors happy is when they can sit in
front of the screen and see the sales figures and trends. Everything
summarised on a single page with more detailed analyse with a simple
click. Think Gmagic, or perhaps Imagic, may be able to plot on a HTML
screen.

Have headings in a language file, so international customisation becomes
easier. Add an access control system allowing users to access different
modules and menus.

OK one can't (yet?) plug-in a bar code reader to a web application but
an interface box can transmit the data using TCP.

> To keep the PHP reasonably secure, it requires HTTPS and
> access authorization is done by LDAP authz so if you don't have a
> username and password on his system, you can't get the login screen. Of
> course the server is kept up to date.

Agreed. Security with HTTPS and non-standard ports not 443, 8000, 8080
etc. Currently use static IPs to prevent unauthorised access.

> As for Paul's expressed notions... It would take a fairly massive amount
> of man hours to produce a fully functional dual entry accounting package
> for widespread business use.

I think the essential thing is sheer inspirational brain work carefully
thinking about everything before stating to code. Get the structure and
the objectives correct and the rest is a piece of cake. And be prepared
to modify.

> Before you decide on an environment, you
> would probably want to commit to test driven development and MVC which
> almost invites the use of a framework (Cake/Django/RoR). Personally I am
> biased towards RoR but starting a large scale project in ruby, php or
> python without using one of the frameworks at this point would be a
> really poor choice. There are a number of PHP based accounting systems
> out there which you could probably fork but why? They all missed the
> boat somewhere, somehow.

Unsure what you mean by 'framework'.

Simple to write, harder to ensure everything integrates well. Probably 3
to 4 months part-time. Easy and intuitive to use and delivering what the
users want plus scope for customisation.


--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


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Old 09-15-2011, 03:36 AM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 19:32 -0700, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 09/14/11 6:39 PM, Always Learning wrote:
> > Ajax/Jquery is someone else's parametrised programming language. It adds
> > complexity and overhead to what is fundamentally a very basic task. Ajax
> > etc. seem to appeal to people who are not good (or natural) programmers.
> > Ajax etc. is like programming with boxing gloves on and taking several
> > weeks to do it. If they want to use it, let them.
>
> Ajax is not a programming language, its a technique of implementing the
> client (browser) side of your applications in JavaScript, which is the
> programming language.

Its a programming language is my humble opinion. One has to 'code' in
it. It has a defined syntax and it has a rather large and complex
overhead. By the way, I also think BASH is a programming language.

> ever use gmail or google documents? thats ajax. its interactive
> within the USER BROWSER without requiring round trips to the web server
> for every little operation such as summing up the checks entered in a
> form as they are being entered. An Ajax accounting program could be
> interactive like Quickbooks is, as opposed to fill in a static form and
> hit submit for every little action.

One never ever hits the button for every little action, does one ? My
latest data entry form takes 20 separate sets of entries before the user
clicks SAVE.

> And, if you've never used a SQL join, you don't know the first thing
> about *relational* databases, you've been using SQL as though it was a
> simple flat table ISAM, DBase-style circa 1983. Might as well use
> BerkeleyDB for that, its even faster and lighter weight.

Golly. I grew-up in real computers. Relational databases are simply
database structures, linking records. There is no reason to use joins
and views IF the database is carefully planned. Joins and views are
another overhead. Rule Number 000001 in programming is Keep It Simple.

Index-sequential is another database access method that came along. Very
useful. Access random is another. Data is actually 'flat'. It can not be
anything else. However additional retrieval by non-primary key is
usually desirable. Traversing chains of linked records is another method
too.

I've done several domestic and international contracts writing
applications using relational databases. Are you more of a Sys.Op than a
computer programmer / systems analyst / systems programmer / database
designer / systems designer ?

When SQL first came out, I think it was an IBM thing, I never liked the
syntax. Years later I'm using it effectively and very productively.

> but, whatever. its your project, have at it.

Thank you. Thank you too for your interesting comments.



--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


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