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Old 09-15-2011, 09:35 AM
John Hodrien
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Always Learning wrote:

> Golly. I grew-up in real computers. Relational databases are simply
> database structures, linking records. There is no reason to use joins
> and views IF the database is carefully planned. Joins and views are
> another overhead. Rule Number 000001 in programming is Keep It Simple.

Next you'll be saying you don't use triggers and constraints either.

There's nothing wrong with using a database as just a dumb datastore, but you
get out exactly what you put in. Suddenly your application is responsible for
a whole lot more. You might see a view as complicating things, but if it can
make your app faster, and make your code cleaner, what's not to like?

I think with most applications like you're describing people have a decision
to make as to how much logic goes in the DB and how much goes in the app.
When you're new to it, I think you tend to put all the logic in the
application. As you progress I think you at the very least put in controls
into the database to maintain the integrity of the data.

jh
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Old 09-15-2011, 11:42 AM
Keith Roberts
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Always Learning wrote:

> One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete commercial
> accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a piece of cake to do
> well (meaning easily) but a little time consuming. The only difficulty I
> can think of is printing things locally.

Have you considered using sqlite3 for this Paul?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAMt8Tj-84

Kind Regards,

Keith

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Old 09-15-2011, 11:51 AM
Keith Roberts
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Keith Roberts wrote:

> To: CentOS mailing list <centos@centos.org>
> From: Keith Roberts <keith@karsites.net>
> Subject: Re: [CentOS] Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7
>
> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Always Learning wrote:
>
>> One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete commercial
>> accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a piece of cake to do
>> well (meaning easily) but a little time consuming. The only difficulty I
>> can think of is printing things locally.
>
> Have you considered using sqlite3 for this Paul?
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giAMt8Tj-84

I'd also suggest taking a look at PHP Smarty Template
Engine, which allows you to cleanly seperate the back-end
programming logic, from the Web Browser HTML display code.

http://www.smarty.net/crash_course

HTH

Keith

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Old 09-15-2011, 12:16 PM
Craig White
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 04:07 +0100, Always Learning wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 19:17 -0700, Craig White wrote:
>
> ... snip interesting posting ....
>
> > WebApps are clearly the future - it's hard to justify specialized
> > server/client applications (installation, limited choice of clients,
> > maintenance, licensing) and it seems that the future will offer 2
> > choices... SAAS or run your own.
>
> That is the way I see things. Web runs anywhere. Otherwise specific
> application software (usually costing money), licensing involvement,
> software dependency etc. Grab a reasonable browser and start using the
> application!
>
>
> > My own take on it... 'plain html' accounting is just fine.
>
> Mine are a bit more than 'plain'. I use CSS. However accounting is
> basically entering or capturing the data; then doing basic tasks like
> orders, invoices, statements etc. Add some complicated things like
> credit control and specific discount structures for individual
> customers. Branch-out in to name, address and other contract details,
> add the mailing list facility. Add stock control, automatic re-ordering
> etc.
>
> The best bits that make the directors happy is when they can sit in
> front of the screen and see the sales figures and trends. Everything
> summarised on a single page with more detailed analyse with a simple
> click. Think Gmagic, or perhaps Imagic, may be able to plot on a HTML
> screen.
----
evidently not knowing what you are talking about and not ever having
actually done anything like it does not represent a barrier for you to
express your opinion on a subject...

Gmagic/Imagick are somewhat incapable of doing graphing at all. You
would likely use a flash or google charts implementation these days to
generate graphs as there are all sorts of libraries that make this dead
simple.
----
> > Before you decide on an environment, you
> > would probably want to commit to test driven development and MVC which
> > almost invites the use of a framework (Cake/Django/RoR). Personally I am
> > biased towards RoR but starting a large scale project in ruby, php or
> > python without using one of the frameworks at this point would be a
> > really poor choice. There are a number of PHP based accounting systems
> > out there which you could probably fork but why? They all missed the
> > boat somewhere, somehow.
>
> Unsure what you mean by 'framework'.
----
Framework is the core of any application. It's well known terminology
for anyone who has done software development...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework

If you don't adopt an existing framework, then you have to create your
own framework as your application develops sucking an inordinate amount
of time and given to endless refactoring as your application evolves.

Recognize that by admitting you were unsure of what a framework is w/r/t
software development provides a clear recognition that you really don't
have any experience with software development.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model%E2%80%93view%E2%80%93controller
Anyone who has developed software that embraces MVC will never want to
work on a project that doesn't.
----
>
> Simple to write, harder to ensure everything integrates well. Probably 3
> to 4 months part-time. Easy and intuitive to use and delivering what the
> users want plus scope for customisation.
----
I'm sort of done with this thread. No reason to try to seriously discuss
something with someone who knows nothing about what they write.

Craig


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Old 09-15-2011, 12:21 PM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 10:35 +0100, John Hodrien wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Always Learning wrote:
>
> > Golly. I grew-up in real computers. Relational databases are simply
> > database structures, linking records. There is no reason to use joins
> > and views IF the database is carefully planned. Joins and views are
> > another overhead. Rule Number 000001 in programming is Keep It Simple.

> Next you'll be saying you don't use triggers and constraints either.

Not consciously. Never heard of them.

http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/iseries/v5r3/index.jsp?topic=%
2Frzahf%2Frzahftrigcontable.htm

"A trigger is a type of stored procedure program that is automatically
called whenever a specified action is performed on a specific table.
Triggers are useful for keeping audit trails, for detecting exceptional
conditions, for maintaining relationships in the database, and for
running applications and operations that coincide with the change
operation."

> There's nothing wrong with using a database as just a dumb datastore,
> but you get out exactly what you put in.

Hopefully that is always possible - retrieving EXACTLY what was stored
in the database. Why would one want the database to manipulate (change)
data ? Is that a solution for lazy programming ?

> Suddenly your application is responsible for a whole lot more. You
> might see a view as complicating things, but if it can make your app
> faster, and make your code cleaner, what's not to like?

Simplicity and good design makes applications fast.

If an application is fast and effective, because of its design and
simplicity, why complicate it ? A SQL View is an additional overhead
and not needed, in my opinion, in (my) well-designed systems.

> I think with most applications like you're describing people have a
> decision to make as to how much logic goes in the DB and how much goes
> in the app. When you're new to it, I think you tend to put all the
> logic in the application. As you progress I think you at the very
> least put in controls into the database to maintain the integrity of
> the data.

As one becomes more knowledgeable and accustomed to things, one
inevitably regards the database and applications as being integral parts
of the same system. Efficient retrieval of stored data should be a
paramount consideration for the good design of applications.

Unsure why you mean by "at the very least put in controls into the
database to maintain the integrity of the data."

The integrity of the data can be divided into two aspects: ensuring the
data remains constant (unaltered) while stored, which is the
responsibility of the operation system and the database software, and
the data's integrity from an application perspective. Junk-in always
causes Junk-out even when using 'non-dumb' databases :-)

--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


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Old 09-15-2011, 12:41 PM
Christopher Chan
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thursday, September 15, 2011 08:21 PM, Always Learning wrote:

> The integrity of the data can be divided into two aspects: ensuring the
> data remains constant (unaltered) while stored, which is the
> responsibility of the operation system and the database software, and
> the data's integrity from an application perspective. Junk-in always
> causes Junk-out even when using 'non-dumb' databases :-)
>

Did you mentor DJB?

:-D
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Old 09-15-2011, 12:44 PM
Christopher Chan
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thursday, September 15, 2011 09:08 AM, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 09/14/11 6:03 PM, Thomas Dukes wrote:
>>> One day, if I have time, I want to programme a complete
>>>> commercial accounts systems using HTML, PHP and MySQL. Its a
>>>> piece of cake to do well (meaning easily) but a little time
>>>> consuming. The only difficulty I can think of is printing
>>>> things locally.
>> I love the challenge. I'm a hacker from way back. While this sort of stuff
>> isn't humorous now days and since I've 'grown up', I understand why. Still,
>> I love it!!
>
> an accounting system thats in plain HTML would be incredibly clunky to
> use. you really want to do this in ajax/jquery or whatever so its more
> interactive
>
> also, I'd suggest using postgresql for better data integrity, and
> anything-but-php (Python?) for better webside security.
>

How about perl with postgresql? sql-ledger - double entry goodness. Sure
shorts out my brain when I try to contemplate creating the COA,
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Old 09-15-2011, 01:22 PM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 05:16 -0700, Craig White wrote:


> Gmagic/Imagick are somewhat incapable of doing graphing at all.

Have you ever really looked ? What about GmagickDraw:oint and similar
items ?

> You would likely use a flash or google charts implementation these days
> to generate graphs as there are all sorts of libraries that make this
> dead simple.

No Flash. It is a known security danger and stores, without the user's
knowledge and permission, files on the user's hard disk which are not
removed by normal browser behaviour. If it can be done, I prefer to do
it with PHP. Open Source HTML 5 should replace Flash.

> Framework is the core of any application. It's well known terminology
> for anyone who has done software development...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_framework

Untrue. The 'framework' seems like a nightmare ....

"... software frameworks consist of frozen spots and hot spots ...

"... Hot spots represent those parts where the programmers using the
framework add their own code to add the functionality specific to their
own project....

"... Software frameworks define the places in the architecture where
application programmers may make adaptations for specific functionality—
the hot spots.

"... Without a framework though, "there is no such thing as a component"

"... consists of abstract and concrete classes ...

"... framework consists of composing and subclassing ...

"... When developing a concrete software system with a software
framework, developers utilize the hot spots according to the specific
needs and requirements of the system.

"... Software frameworks rely on the Hollywood Principle: "Don't call
us, we'll call you."[12] This means that the user-defined classes (for
example, new subclasses), receive messages from the predefined framework
classes. Developers usually handle this by implementing superclass
abstract methods."

NO THANKS. Frameworks is certainly not for me. It seems like a gigantic
and over-complicated time-waster.

> If you don't adopt an existing framework, then you have to create your
> own framework as your application develops sucking an inordinate amount
> of time and given to endless refactoring as your application evolves.

Disagree. 'Keep it Simple' is my preference. Don't complicate things.
Framework crap is probably why so many multi-million pounds or dollars
computer projects fail so abysmally. In Britain the public sector is
littered with them, while computer companies make millions and millions
of pounds profit from failed projects.

> Recognize that by admitting you were unsure of what a framework is w/r/t
> software development provides a clear recognition that you really don't
> have any experience with software development.

I have 44 years computer programming experience. I have seen enormous
amounts of time-wasting, and usually money generating, crap with
wonderful names and impressive waffle, presented by men wearing very
expensive new suits and ultra shinny black shoes. Sometimes they offer
bribes to get the contract. I have developed a basic aversion to
anything which creates an unnecessary complication or overhead.

Perhaps you really lack a clear understanding about the Art of
Programming effectively and efficiently. Frameworks is just another
complicated idea which slows application development and costs
unnecessary sums of money.

I am honest about computers. I have no intention of claiming I know
about 'frameworks' when I do not. Many so-called 'computer experts'
routinely lie and talk in jargon to conceal their limited understanding.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model%E2%80%93view%E2%80%93controller
> Anyone who has developed software that embraces MVC will never want to
> work on a project that doesn't.

Here we go again .....

"Though MVC comes in different flavors, control flow is generally as
follows:

1. The user interacts with the user interface in some way (for
example, by pressing a mouse button).
2. The controller handles the input event from the user interface,
often via a registered handler or callback, and converts the
event into an appropriate user action, understandable for the
model.
3. The controller notifies the model of the user action, possibly
resulting in a change in the model's state. (For example, the
controller updates the user's shopping cart.)[4]
4. A view queries the model in order to generate an appropriate
user interface (for example the view lists the shopping cart's
contents). The view gets its own data from the model. In some
implementations, the controller may issue a general instruction
to the view to render itself. In others, the view is
automatically notified by the model of changes in state
(Observer) that require a screen update.
5. The user interface waits for further user interactions, which
restarts the control flow cycle."

Among other things, I just write programmes. Why would I want to refer
to the above when designing, writing and testing systems ? Remember
what I wrote about an aversion to complication et cetera and keeping
things simple ? Perhaps the less-well-informed need to be told what is
the objective of writing programmes and how a programme should interface
with users.

> I'm sort of done with this thread. No reason to try to seriously discuss
> something with someone who knows nothing about what they write.

Please do not denigrate yourself. You might eventually learn what
computer programming, systems design and end-user satisfaction is really
about.


--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


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Old 09-15-2011, 01:28 PM
Always Learning
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

On Thu, 2011-09-15 at 20:41 +0800, Christopher Chan wrote:

> On Thursday, September 15, 2011 08:21 PM, Always Learning wrote:
>
> > The integrity of the data can be divided into two aspects: ensuring the
> > data remains constant (unaltered) while stored, which is the
> > responsibility of the operation system and the database software, and
> > the data's integrity from an application perspective. Junk-in always
> > causes Junk-out even when using 'non-dumb' databases :-)

> Did you mentor DJB?

No. Never heard of him/her ... (quick Google) ...Daniel Julius
Bernstei.


--
With best regards,

Paul.
England,
EU.


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Old 09-15-2011, 01:37 PM
Steve Walsh
 
Default Upgrade from 5.6 => 5.7

Always Learning wrote:
> What did you expect ? Its not Windoze ;-)
>
Hrm. In an effort to pull this thread back onto topic, instead of a "my
IBM DB2 database is better than your mysql junk anyday" thread, let's
look back at various known issues over each release cycle;

5.1 -
http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS5.1#head-da845ab1cd8fc52963ad03fdbdefc2bde261b0a6
* Kernel had known issues regarding autofs and nfs
* Typo in /etc/X11/xinit/Xsession
* nautilus-sendto has a require for libgaim.so.0., which no longer
existed in the CentOS-5 tree

5.2 -
http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS5.2#head-447967c60eb305ef2c5dbbc3f4e8b3c4c5170632
*The nss_ldap package is broken with bash 3.2 (command
substitution), causing substitution errors and prevents su -
<any_ldap_user> from working.
* upgrading bind-chroot where the bind update overwrites any of
the user's custom settings like ROOTDIR=/some/other/path with the
default ROOTDIR
* performance issue with 3ware controllers
* known issue with the kernel that prevents it from booting.

5.3 -
http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS5.3#head-198f803bc13b52348780db429ae42e0daf82282b
* Known issue with rpm and glibc updates that required a specific
upgrade path.
* you need to uninstall openmpi and lam before you can update
* ntfs code was broken, resulting in centosplus kernel not being
able to be shiped with ntfs enabled.
* 5.3 would crash immediately after install on certain
virtualisation platforms.

5.4 -
http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS5.4#head-29511ff6659f6463d444feb92326ed2232fc8c08
* known issues with the glibc version and incompatibility under
vmware.
* the typo in /etc/X11/xinit/Xsession from 5.1 resurfaces
* intel video cards would blank screen following the update,
requiring editing of the xorg.conf and a restart.
* More known updates to glibc, yum, rpm and python requiring a
specific update sequence.

5.5 -
http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS5.5#head-2dd2d2fe0b1675dbb12ed3b487df995ddbe2b9eb
* issues with Virtualbox compatibilty during the upgrade
* nvidia drivers are not compatible with updated system
* More intel video card breakage
* LDAP was lobotomised, requiring configuration changes to operate
* Performance issues with nvidia controllers resulting in
sluggish and limited performance.
* yep, you guessed it, More known updates to glibc, yum, rpm and
python requiring a specific update sequence.

5.6 -
http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS5.6#head-60758eb5ab66c94f98fda0383fa8c7a8b97b9c53
* httpd would not start after an update due to ssl and mod_nss issues
* scsi-target-utils broke iscsi mounts for large disks, requiring
a downgrade to 5.5 packages to function properly
* changes to the configuration files for file-backed KVM machines
* the version of nspr-devel shipped with 5.6 was older than that
in 5.5 updates
* potential issues with subversion package
* kernel errors on some platforms where the system had more than
3Gb ram.
* Yay! More known updates to glibc, yum, rpm and python requiring
a specific update sequence

So, what can wrong? Quite a bit.

Yes, the 'known issues' section on the 5.7 release notes is pretty
barren, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any bugs at all in the
product, waiting to bite someone who blindly charged into their update
crying "Sod off with the backups, we're not using Microsoft products
here" and run 'yum -y update'.

Steve



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