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Old 05-18-2011, 01:23 PM
"Brunner, Brian T."
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

> There's also a reasonable question about whether this process could
> be better automated,

How do you *automate* a system where the fundamental rules change
'without notice to users'?

> in which case it becomes typical software development for programs
> that solve the dependencies and find and assemble the requirements.

Rebuilding somebody else's sources without their build environment isn't
typical. It's MindReading 101.



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Old 05-18-2011, 01:48 PM
Lamar Owen
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Wednesday, May 18, 2011 09:23:14 AM Brunner, Brian T. wrote:
> Rebuilding somebody else's sources without their build environment isn't
> typical. It's MindReading 101.

It's worse than that in the specific case of EL6. It's replicating the result without replicating the build system. It's a pretty well-known thing that upstream is building with Koji fed from a source code management system; CentOS is not as far as we know (and it's overkill anyway, unless you add several things to the distribution as SL does, and they're using Koji for SL6, and started learning Koji and setting up their buildsystem for 6 nearly a year ago). Koji in fact will not allow, by default, a 'normal' user to rebuild from source RPM, but requires building out of the SCM for normal users. The case of a 'from source RPM' rebuild is not Koji's forte.

It's also fairly well-known that mock builds in koji and mock builds outside of koji can sometimes differ. Grep the archives of several lists to verify that; I've seen it before, but I don't have time at the moment to pull up the reference. I have a VAX to redisk and boot up....
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Old 05-18-2011, 03:06 PM
Tom H
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 9:01 AM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 5/18/11 5:05 AM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:
>>
>> Tom, you are way off the point I was making. RHEL, Fedora, Debian,
>> Ubuntu, all other distro's are *developed* and can change at any time.

That's why I said "he should've only chosen to compare CentOS to SL."
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Old 05-18-2011, 04:08 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 5/18/2011 8:23 AM, Brunner, Brian T. wrote:
>
>> There's also a reasonable question about whether this process could
>> be better automated,
>
> How do you *automate* a system where the fundamental rules change
> 'without notice to users'?

You have the results you want to reproduce. You have a list of likely
suspects for the components involved (some of which may be the same as
your binary results). You have a way to test if your output is a
reasonable match. The part in between can either be brute force trial
and error, predictions based on hints from file or source change
timestamps on the components and target outputs, looking at the library
linkages you want to reproduce, or some combination thereof. The 'list
of likely suspects' and where to find them might be hard to automate but
it's something that might benefit from more eyes.

>> in which case it becomes typical software development for programs
>> that solve the dependencies and find and assemble the requirements.
>
> Rebuilding somebody else's sources without their build environment isn't
> typical. It's MindReading 101.

Whether a computer program can simulate mindreading better than a person
(reading someone else's mind)is still up in the air. My money would be
on the computer going forward anyway, especially if speed is one of the
ways you judge the results. Whether exposing the process to the
community would ever result in such techniques being developed or even
scaling out the brute force approach is equally speculation. The more
fundamental question here is whether the current timeframes are a
problem for anyone or if there is any need to change the existing
process. And that discussion seems to be off limits with the only
choice being to switch to a different disto or start a new project if
you don't think the existing approach is perfect. At this point that
discussion is probably counterproductive for this release, but the 'open
is better' suggestions have always been brushed rudely aside. At least
there _is_ another distro suitable at least for testing purposes.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com
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Old 05-18-2011, 07:49 PM
Johnny Hughes
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 05/18/2011 08:01 AM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> It was discussed, but that doesn't change anyone's mindset about open vs. closed
> processes or whether being more open and permitting community insight and
> participation would ultimately keep the project from going the way of Whitebox.

Hello Les,

CentOS is used on more web servers than Red Hat Enterprise Linux and
Fedora combined ... it is not going anywhere.

Also, the slight decrease that was happening in Linux in general (which
was mirrored by CentOS) in October of 2010 is also corrected.


http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-centos/all/all

Facebook uses thousands of CentOS servers. They are quite happy with
it. Amazon EC2 has thousands of CentOS servers. They are also quite
happy with it. We just became a fully supported OS on Microsoft Hyper-V.

Can we do a better job at some things, sure. But trust me, CentOS is
going nowhere.

Thanks,
Johnny Hughes

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Old 05-19-2011, 03:46 AM
Emmanuel Noobadmin
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 5/19/11, Johnny Hughes <johnny@centos.org> wrote:
> Can we do a better job at some things, sure. But trust me, CentOS is
> going nowhere.

I think you might mean "CentOS is not going away" since "going
nowhere" fast or slow is bad news for those waiting for the next
version
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Old 05-19-2011, 11:54 AM
Dag Wieers
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Mon, 16 May 2011, Johnny Hughes wrote:

> It will be released when it is released, if you don't like it then leave.

Before I leave this list let me take you back about 7 years to the
Whitebox mailinglist. You may not remember that Whitebox had a list of
issues of its own, no timely updates, no community effort, lack of good
communication. It was mostly a one-man-effort.

And the people on that list who were not pleased, included Johnny and
Karanbir. And it's striking (and ironic) how similar the discussions went
7 years ago. Johnny said:

[WBEL-users] WBEL Vs Centos ? :-S
http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004761.html

"If timely updates are not a key factor for you, then WBEL is a great
distro. If timely updates are the most important thing you consider
about the distro you want, then WBEL might not be a fit for you. That
is all I have ever said ... and I have never said it meanly."

or:

[WBEL-users] WBEL Vs Centos ? :-S
http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004740.html

"I just think people should not have the expectation the WBEL is
community operated, it is not. It's NOT like debian or gentoo where
others can get involved. I know, I tried really hard to do so many
times.

Karanbir said:

[WBEL-users] WBEL ...dead?
http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004684.html

"Be a lil difficult to sell that to the IT Manager / CTO : Hang tight
dude, its comming. Anytime now."

or:

[WBEL-users] WBEL ...dead?
http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004709.html

"Why ? the other RHEL recompiles dont have this 'its coming, hang on'
attitude do they ?

If there is a security issue out there, you can put in a fairly good
idea as to when its possible to deploy with them. Whats the scene with
WBEL ?"

The only difference I see is that back then Whitebox had only a fraction
of users, and even less using it for critical mission, while nowadays
people rely even more on timely security updates and releases coming from
CentOS. And people expect to help and contribute to the process to make
that happen.

Which, contrary to what is stated now, was an essential part in the start
and growth of the CentOS project.

Anyay, goodbye and thanks for all the fish !
--
-- dag wieers, dag@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/
-- dagit linux solutions, info@dagit.net, http://dagit.net/

[Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
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Old 05-19-2011, 12:23 PM
"B.J. McClure"
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Thu, 2011-05-19 at 13:54 +0200, Dag Wieers wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>
> > It will be released when it is released, if you don't like it then leave.
>
> Before I leave this list let me take you back about 7 years to the
> Whitebox mailinglist. You may not remember that Whitebox had a list of
> issues of its own, no timely updates, no community effort, lack of good
> communication. It was mostly a one-man-effort.

<snip>


> Anyay, goodbye and thanks for all the fish !

Sorry to see you go, Dag. Your technical input to this list over the
years has, IMHO, been valuable. And whether or not I agreed with your
opinion input, it was always presented in a professional manner.

This is my first, and last, post to this line of threads, but frankly, I
have greater concern for the lack of professionalism shown by some on
this list in the last few months than the timeliness, or lack thereof,
of updates.

IMHO, personal attacks and profanity directed at any list member is
always grossly inappropriate.

Thanks for your contributions.

B.J.

RHEL 6.0, Linux 2.6.32-71.29.1.el6.x86_64

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Old 05-19-2011, 01:13 PM
Craig White
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Thu, 2011-05-19 at 13:54 +0200, Dag Wieers wrote:
> On Mon, 16 May 2011, Johnny Hughes wrote:
>
> > It will be released when it is released, if you don't like it then leave.
>
> Before I leave this list let me take you back about 7 years to the
> Whitebox mailinglist. You may not remember that Whitebox had a list of
> issues of its own, no timely updates, no community effort, lack of good
> communication. It was mostly a one-man-effort.
>
> And the people on that list who were not pleased, included Johnny and
> Karanbir. And it's striking (and ironic) how similar the discussions went
> 7 years ago. Johnny said:
>
> [WBEL-users] WBEL Vs Centos ? :-S
> http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004761.html
>
> "If timely updates are not a key factor for you, then WBEL is a great
> distro. If timely updates are the most important thing you consider
> about the distro you want, then WBEL might not be a fit for you. That
> is all I have ever said ... and I have never said it meanly."
>
> or:
>
> [WBEL-users] WBEL Vs Centos ? :-S
> http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004740.html
>
> "I just think people should not have the expectation the WBEL is
> community operated, it is not. It's NOT like debian or gentoo where
> others can get involved. I know, I tried really hard to do so many
> times.
>
> Karanbir said:
>
> [WBEL-users] WBEL ...dead?
> http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004684.html
>
> "Be a lil difficult to sell that to the IT Manager / CTO : Hang tight
> dude, its comming. Anytime now."
>
> or:
>
> [WBEL-users] WBEL ...dead?
> http://beau.org/pipermail/whitebox-users/2004-December/004709.html
>
> "Why ? the other RHEL recompiles dont have this 'its coming, hang on'
> attitude do they ?
>
> If there is a security issue out there, you can put in a fairly good
> idea as to when its possible to deploy with them. Whats the scene with
> WBEL ?"
>
> The only difference I see is that back then Whitebox had only a fraction
> of users, and even less using it for critical mission, while nowadays
> people rely even more on timely security updates and releases coming from
> CentOS. And people expect to help and contribute to the process to make
> that happen.
----
The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife. Those of us who were
whitebox users surely remember how the updates came slower and slower
and our sense of frustration of never knowing how/if/when the updates
would come. Your reminder (because I had forgotten) that they used
timeliness as the main selling point for switching to CentOS well... if
that isn't a wake up call to Johnny & Karanbir, then nothing will do it.

At least John Morris never made any pretense of whitebox being a
community project nor did he promise updates to be anything except on
his own timetable. I remember how awkward I felt when Johnny would use
the WBEL mail list to suggest to people to switch to CentOS and laughed
the other day when he was rather perturbed because the CentOS list was
used to promote the idea of switching to SL. More irony.

I resolved to not install WBEL 4.0 on any system because I couldn't
trust it to be timely and now, here we are at 6.0 and I feel the same
way about CentOS. Full circle.

The sycophants on this list probably don't recognize just how valuable
the 'dag' repo (aka rpmforge) has been to the RHEL/CentOS/SL/etc.
ecosystem but my feeling is that if Dag can't hold the CentOS dev's feet
to the fire, then no one can. Evidently I am one of the "ungrateful
bastards"
<http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2011-May/111670.html> but you
could never be considered to be one of them.

Craig


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Old 05-19-2011, 03:05 PM
"R - elists"
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

Dag wrote:
> Before I leave this list let me take you back about 7 years
> to the Whitebox mailinglist. You may not remember that
> Whitebox had a list of issues of its own, no timely updates,
> no community effort, lack of good communication. It was
> mostly a one-man-effort.

bummer to see you go Dag...

yet as you know, everything has issues...

if one mainly looks for "or" at things in a negative perspective, you will
always find more of same...

yet believe it or not, if you look for the good, and count your blessings
based on it, the count of such will never end...

some are ungrateful, yes... but for the most part they are sinfully ignorant
& think way too highly of themselves

what is truly, seriously ironic is that the ignorant / ungrateful crowd gets
a chance to come out of the woodwork... you know the ones... they havent
done whatever is necessary to (in major way) help centos as a whole and/or
do any core centos work during CentOSs' lifetime (7 years ???) while the
core centos heros carry the majority of the load the whole time.

then when the proverbial doody hits the fan and the centos heros (as always)
roll up sleeves & multiple distro works are progressing at a variable rate

the ignorant act like they have all the answers and can help the centos
heros, YET the ignorant never actually roll up their sleves and do anything
to help.

mainly lots of crying and peeping like helpless baby birds waiting for food.

i may not be 100% correct, yet one thing i have picked up on over the years
in relationship to volunteering for CentOS is that the centos heros do not
have time to BABY and SPOON FEED new recruits.

- rh



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