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Old 05-16-2011, 08:38 PM
John R Pierce
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 05/16/11 1:18 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> Yes, but whatever can't be automated here should benefit from doing the
> trial-and-error in parallel. And the potential improvements might come
> in the automation process as much as the grunge work - you can't really
> predict how an open project will develop.

so you are volunteering to take over 4.next or 5.x or whatever when the
time comes ? you can come up with the build infrastructure and develop
this automation in the meantime? I'd suggest starting with recreating
5.6 by working from 5.5 and the RHEL 5,6 SRPMs exclusively. let us know
how long it takes from scratch, ok? you don't mind that
we-the-community would want our packagers vetted by demonstrating the
ability to deliver... consider this a test run.


--
john r pierce N 37, W 123
santa cruz ca mid-left coast

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Old 05-16-2011, 08:50 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 5/16/2011 3:38 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
> On 05/16/11 1:18 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
>> Yes, but whatever can't be automated here should benefit from doing the
>> trial-and-error in parallel. And the potential improvements might come
>> in the automation process as much as the grunge work - you can't really
>> predict how an open project will develop.
>
> so you are volunteering to take over 4.next or 5.x or whatever when the
> time comes ? you can come up with the build infrastructure and develop
> this automation in the meantime? I'd suggest starting with recreating
> 5.6 by working from 5.5 and the RHEL 5,6 SRPMs exclusively. let us know
> how long it takes from scratch, ok? you don't mind that
> we-the-community would want our packagers vetted by demonstrating the
> ability to deliver... consider this a test run.

No, but I'm not the only member of the public. And your suggestion of
starting by reproducing someone else's work from scratch instead of
building on it would be like Linus telling everyone to just write their
own unix-like kernel before trying to add to it. If he had done that
instead of letting others build on the existing work we wouldn't be
talking about usable Linux distributions today at all.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 05-16-2011, 08:51 PM
Ron Blizzard
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but whatever can't be automated here should benefit from doing the
> trial-and-error in parallel. * And the potential improvements might come
> in the automation process as much as the grunge work - you can't really
> predict how an open project will develop.

You know Les, you're talking in hypotheticals. Johnny and the other
CentOS developers are actually *doing* the work. Everything is "easy"
when you're not actually doing it. If you know so much about *how* it
should be done, why don't you and your like-minded friends start your
own rebuild project? That would give you something else to do rather
than sniping from the sidelines here.

--
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.6
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:57 PM
Ron Blizzard
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Janne TH. Nyman <jnyman@jbtec.org> wrote:
> Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and
> providing considering how their "users" treat them.
>
> Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing
> that happened since sliced bread.
>
> Come on, community, where is your love?
>
> My 2 pence,

Hopefully, deep down, the CentOS developers know that it's the same
few whiners over and over and over and over again... like broken
records. They've got it in their mind that they know so much better
how it *should* be done. Armchair quarterbacks always *know* better.

At any rate, +1.

--
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.6
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Old 05-16-2011, 08:59 PM
Brian Mathis
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 2:40 PM, Janne TH. Nyman <jnyman@jbtec.org> wrote:
> Who cares? I find it amazing that these guys still keep on building and
> providing considering how their "users" treat them.
>
> Team CentOS, keep your heads up. For me, you are still the best thing
> that happened since sliced bread.
>
> Come on, community, where is your love?
>
> My 2 pence,
>
> Janne "Janski" AKA JNixus Nyman
> Founder of Newman IT Solutions Ltd


These kind of ass-kissing posts are even worse than the flame wars.
The flame wars at least usually start with some sort of reasonable
criticism of the project, and have the *potential* to result in a
discussion that ultimately improves the project. Ass kissing never
has the potential to improve the project.

Flame wars only start once Johnny or some sycophant tells everyone to
fuck off, thereby derailing any potential for a constructive
discussion. At that point you're left with lots of very smart, very
angry people who feel like they wasted their time promoting and using
CentOS.


// Brian Mathis
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:00 PM
Ron Blizzard
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:50 PM, Les Mikesell <lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:

> No, but I'm not the only member of the public. *And your suggestion of
> starting by reproducing someone else's work from scratch instead of
> building on it would be like Linus telling everyone to just write their
> own unix-like kernel before trying to add to it. *If he had done that
> instead of letting others build on the existing work we wouldn't be
> talking about usable Linux distributions today at all.

And yet that's what the CentOS developers originally had to do (and
apparently had to do all over again with 6.0). So a little respect and
gratitude would be in order, don't you think?

--
RonB -- Using CentOS 5.6
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:00 PM
Radu Gheorghiu
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 05/16/2011 11:50 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> On 5/16/2011 3:38 PM, John R Pierce wrote:
>> On 05/16/11 1:18 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
>>> Yes, but whatever can't be automated here should benefit from doing the
>>> trial-and-error in parallel. And the potential improvements might come
>>> in the automation process as much as the grunge work - you can't really
>>> predict how an open project will develop.
>> so you are volunteering to take over 4.next or 5.x or whatever when the
>> time comes ? you can come up with the build infrastructure and develop
>> this automation in the meantime? I'd suggest starting with recreating
>> 5.6 by working from 5.5 and the RHEL 5,6 SRPMs exclusively. let us know
>> how long it takes from scratch, ok? you don't mind that
>> we-the-community would want our packagers vetted by demonstrating the
>> ability to deliver... consider this a test run.
> No, but I'm not the only member of the public. And your suggestion of
> starting by reproducing someone else's work from scratch instead of
> building on it would be like Linus telling everyone to just write their
> own unix-like kernel before trying to add to it. If he had done that
> instead of letting others build on the existing work we wouldn't be
> talking about usable Linux distributions today at all.
>
The main "fear" the developers have is that somebody could steal their
work and come up with
another RHEL clone easily if they release their build system & scripts.
I think this is obvious by now.
It is also pretty obvious that the developers have a strong hope that by
keeping CentOS closed,
somebody will notice their skills and will pay them a fortune for their
knowledge by hiring them.
This is my opinion and it is based on what I read on this list during
the last months.
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:03 PM
John R Pierce
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On 05/16/11 1:51 PM, Ron Blizzard wrote:
> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Les Mikesell<lesmikesell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yes, but whatever can't be automated here should benefit from doing the
>> trial-and-error in parallel. And the potential improvements might come
>> in the automation process as much as the grunge work - you can't really
>> predict how an open project will develop.
> You know Les, you're talking in hypotheticals. Johnny and the other
> CentOS developers are actually *doing* the work. Everything is "easy"
> when you're not actually doing it. If you know so much about *how* it
> should be done, why don't you and your like-minded friends start your
> own rebuild project? That would give you something else to do rather
> than sniping from the sidelines here.
>

no, no. he wants someone ELSE to do that. see his last response to me.

i'm done with this thread. <ker-flush>


--
john r pierce N 37, W 123
santa cruz ca mid-left coast

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Old 05-16-2011, 09:06 PM
"John R. Dennison"
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 03:51:22PM -0500, Ron Blizzard wrote:
>
> You know Les, you're talking in hypotheticals. Johnny and the other
> CentOS developers are actually *doing* the work. Everything is "easy"
> when you're not actually doing it. If you know so much about *how* it
> should be done, why don't you and your like-minded friends start your
> own rebuild project? That would give you something else to do rather
> than sniping from the sidelines here.

+1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000




John
--
Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, they will not care
how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you
have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to
worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have
lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.

-- Marcus Aurelius (121-180), philosopher and writer
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Old 05-16-2011, 09:10 PM
Craig White
 
Default EL 6 rollout strategies? (Scientific Linux)

On May 16, 2011, at 11:47 AM, Johnny Hughes wrote:

> Now, not only do I need to bust my ass to provide it to you for free,
> but I also need to do other things for you to. I need to provide you
> access to stuff and I need to track things in a different way and I need
> to setup elaborate systems. AND, I need to tell you exactly how I build
> it too.
>
> Can't you ungrateful bastards take the free software I make by following
> the licensing requirements and be happy with that?

----
can't say that in all the years I've been using FOSS/Linux that I've ever seen the maintainers have such open disdain for their users. Clearly they have gotten a massive code base for free and though the cost of assembling it into a redistributable system is not inconsequential, it's clear that if this attitude was prevalent, we wouldn't have the massive code base available as it were.

Craig
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