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Old 12-19-2010, 04:07 PM
Jose Maria Terry Jimenez
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

Hello All
First, sorry by my poor english, hope you understand me :-)
I have a problem, i don't understand or don't know how to solve
I need to interconnect 2 networks with different numbers. One is 192.168.236.0/24 the other 192.168.1.0/24. Mainly i need to access services in the 236. from the 1. one.
I have a CentOS 5.5 machine with 2 nics each one configured to work in one of the nets. The CentOS also uses a router for Internet access that is 192.168.1.1.
192.168.1.0/24 >-----192.168.1.100--[CentOS Machine]--192.168.236.74 --------< 192.168.236.0/24
So, i enable forwarding in the CentOS box*
echo '1' > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
And in one machine of the 1. network (this is Fedora14) I add the route:
route add -net 192.168.236.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 gw 192.168.1.100 dev eth0
Since this moment i can ping or access (ssh/http) another CentOS machine in the 236 networkping 192.168.236.74PING 192.168.236.74 (192.168.236.74) 56(84) bytes of data.64 bytes from 192.168.236.74: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.281 ms
But can't access or ping other machines (NOT Linux ones), ie, printers, Win servers, etc...
Also tried adding:*route add 192.168.1.100 eth0
before the route add -net, but no efect.
This fails even if i flush IPTables.
In the CentOS box that replies, i did nothing, it 'just' works.
Can anyone tell what is happening / help me with this?Something to do missing in the CentOS router that joins the networks?*
Best,_____________________________________________ __
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 05:01 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

On 12/19/10 11:07 AM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
> Hello All
>
> First, sorry by my poor english, hope you understand me :-)
>
> I have a problem, i don't understand or don't know how to solve
>
> I need to interconnect 2 networks with different numbers. One is
> 192.168.236.0/24 the other 192.168.1.0/24. Mainly i need to access services in
> the 236. from the 1. one.
>
> I have a CentOS 5.5 machine with 2 nics each one configured to work in one of
> the nets. The CentOS also uses a router for Internet access that is 192.168.1.1.
>
> 192.168.1.0/24 >-----192.168.1.100--[CentOS Machine]--192.168.236.74 --------<
> 192.168.236.0/24
>
> So, i enable forwarding in the CentOS box
>
> echo '1' > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
>
> And in one machine of the 1. network (this is Fedora14) I add the route:
>
> route add -net 192.168.236.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 gw 192.168.1.100 dev eth0
>
> Since this moment i can ping or access (ssh/http) another CentOS machine in the
> 236 network
> ping 192.168.236.74
> PING 192.168.236.74 (192.168.236.74) 56(84) bytes of data.
> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.74: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.281 ms
>
> But can't access or ping other machines (NOT Linux ones), ie, printers, Win
> servers, etc...
>
> Also tried adding:
> route add 192.168.1.100 eth0
>
> before the route add -net, but no efect.
>
> This fails even if i flush IPTables.
>
> In the CentOS box that replies, i did nothing, it 'just' works.
>
> Can anyone tell what is happening / help me with this?
> Something to do missing in the CentOS router that joins the networks?

First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com


_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 05:15 PM
Jose Maria Terry Jimenez
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

El 19/12/2010, a las 19:01, Les Mikesell escribió:

> On 12/19/10 11:07 AM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>> Hello All
>>
>> First, sorry by my poor english, hope you understand me :-)
>>
>> I have a problem, i don't understand or don't know how to solve
>>
>> I need to interconnect 2 networks with different numbers. One is
>> 192.168.236.0/24 the other 192.168.1.0/24. Mainly i need to access services in
>> the 236. from the 1. one.
>>
>> I have a CentOS 5.5 machine with 2 nics each one configured to work in one of
>> the nets. The CentOS also uses a router for Internet access that is 192.168.1.1.
>>
>> 192.168.1.0/24 >-----192.168.1.100--[CentOS Machine]--192.168.236.74 --------<
>> 192.168.236.0/24
>>
>> So, i enable forwarding in the CentOS box
>>
>> echo '1' > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/ip_forward
>>
>> And in one machine of the 1. network (this is Fedora14) I add the route:
>>
>> route add -net 192.168.236.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 gw 192.168.1.100 dev eth0
>>
>> Since this moment i can ping or access (ssh/http) another CentOS machine in the
>> 236 network
>> ping 192.168.236.74
>> PING 192.168.236.74 (192.168.236.74) 56(84) bytes of data.
>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.74: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.281 ms
>>
>> But can't access or ping other machines (NOT Linux ones), ie, printers, Win
>> servers, etc...
>>
>> Also tried adding:
>> route add 192.168.1.100 eth0
>>
>> before the route add -net, but no efect.
>>
>> This fails even if i flush IPTables.
>>
>> In the CentOS box that replies, i did nothing, it 'just' works.
>>
>> Can anyone tell what is happening / help me with this?
>> Something to do missing in the CentOS router that joins the networks?
>
> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>
> --
> Les Mikesell
> lesmikesell@gmail.com

Thank you Les,

Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.

I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...

This can't be solved any other way?

Best

_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 05:31 PM
Jose Maria Terry Jimenez
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

>>
>> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
>> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
>> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
>> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
>> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
>> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>>
>> --
>> Les Mikesell
>> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>
> Thank you Les,
>
> Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.
>
> I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...
>
> This can't be solved any other way?
>
> Best

Hello Again,

I forgot:
I made a mistake in my original post, the ping is to a diferent CentOS box in the 236. network (192.168.236.80) and it replies and i can access it from the Fedora machine in the 1. net.

Why the other CentOS box (in the 236. net) works (reply, can be accessed) without adding any route?

The Fedora box (1. network):
[jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=1.61 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.684 ms
[jose@IDi ~]$ ifconfig eth0 | grep -i 'inet addr'
inet addr:192.168.1.3 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0

The CentOS box (both networks):
[jose@puente ~]$ ifconfig eth0 | grep -i 'inet addr'
inet addr:192.168.1.100 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
[jose@puente ~]$ /sbin/ifconfig eth1 | grep -i 'inet addr'
inet addr:192.168.236.74 Bcast:192.168.236.255 Mask:255.255.255.0

The CentOS box (236. network);
[jose@control ~]$ /sbin/ifconfig eth1 | grep -i 'inet addr'
inet addr:192.168.236.80 Bcast:192.168.236.255 Mask:255.255.255.0


Best

_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 06:23 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

On 12/19/10 12:15 PM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>
>>
>> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
>> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
>> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
>> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
>> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
>> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>>
>
> Thank you Les,
>
> Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.
>
> I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...
>
> This can't be solved any other way?

The only other way to get the packets to return to the right place would be to
use iptables to NAT routed packets to the 192.168.236.74 interface. If you only
need to establish connections in one direction, that should work.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 06:31 PM
Jose Maria Terry Jimenez
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

El 19/12/10 20:23, Les Mikesell escribió:
> On 12/19/10 12:15 PM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>>> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
>>> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
>>> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
>>> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
>>> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
>>> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>>>
>> Thank you Les,
>>
>> Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.
>>
>> I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...
>>
>> This can't be solved any other way?
> The only other way to get the packets to return to the right place would be to
> use iptables to NAT routed packets to the 192.168.236.74 interface. If you only
> need to establish connections in one direction, that should work.
>
Thanks,

Yes, mainly i need to connect from 1. to 236., so i'll look at that
solution.

Best,

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_______________________________________________
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CentOS@centos.org
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Old 12-19-2010, 06:34 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

On 12/19/10 12:31 PM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>>>
>>> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
>>> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
>>> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
>>> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
>>> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
>>> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Les Mikesell
>>> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>>
>> Thank you Les,
>>
>> Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.
>>
>> I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...
>>
>> This can't be solved any other way?
>>
>> Best
>
> Hello Again,
>
> I forgot:
> I made a mistake in my original post, the ping is to a diferent CentOS box in the 236. network (192.168.236.80) and it replies and i can access it from the Fedora machine in the 1. net.
>
> Why the other CentOS box (in the 236. net) works (reply, can be accessed) without adding any route?
>
> The Fedora box (1. network):
> [jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
> PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=1.61 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.684 ms
> [jose@IDi ~]$ ifconfig eth0 | grep -i 'inet addr'
> inet addr:192.168.1.3 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0

This doesn't make much sense without a route. Can you try a traceroute to the
fedora box address from the 192.168.236.80 box to see how/why it gets there?

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com
_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 06:45 PM
Jose Maria Terry Jimenez
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

El 19/12/2010, a las 20:34, Les Mikesell escribió:

> On 12/19/10 12:31 PM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>>>>
>>>> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
>>>> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
>>>> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
>>>> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
>>>> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
>>>> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Les Mikesell
>>>> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>>>
>>> Thank you Les,
>>>
>>> Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.
>>>
>>> I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...
>>>
>>> This can't be solved any other way?
>>>
>>> Best
>>
>> Hello Again,
>>
>> I forgot:
>> I made a mistake in my original post, the ping is to a diferent CentOS box in the 236. network (192.168.236.80) and it replies and i can access it from the Fedora machine in the 1. net.
>>
>> Why the other CentOS box (in the 236. net) works (reply, can be accessed) without adding any route?
>>
>> The Fedora box (1. network):
>> [jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
>> PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=1.61 ms
>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.684 ms
>> [jose@IDi ~]$ ifconfig eth0 | grep -i 'inet addr'
>> inet addr:192.168.1.3 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
>
> This doesn't make much sense without a route. Can you try a traceroute to the
> fedora box address from the 192.168.236.80 box to see how/why it gets there?

Sure, here it is:

>From fresh reboot of the Fedora14 box:

[jose@IDi ~]$ su -
Contraseña:
[root@IDi ~]# route add -net 192.168.236.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 gw 192.168.1.100 dev eth0
[root@IDi ~]# logout

[jose@IDi ~]$ traceroute 192.168.236.80
traceroute to 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
1 puente (192.168.1.100) 0.286 ms 0.260 ms 0.239 ms
2 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 0.963 ms !X 0.949 ms !X 0.930 ms !X
[jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.668 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.599 ms
64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=3 ttl=64 time=0.566 ms
^C
--- 192.168.236.80 ping statistics ---
3 packets transmitted, 3 received, 0% packet loss, time 2000ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.566/0.611/0.668/0.042 ms

[jose@IDi ~]$ ssh 192.168.236.80
jose@192.168.236.80's password:
Last login: Sun Dec 19 20:44:44 2010 from 192.168.1.3
[jose@control ~]$


_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 07:07 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

On 12/19/10 1:45 PM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>
> El 19/12/2010, a las 20:34, Les Mikesell escribió:
>
>> On 12/19/10 12:31 PM, Jose Maria Terry Jimenez wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> First make sure that you can ping/access those 'other' services from the centos
>>>>> box with 2 nics. It should source from the .236 interface and 'just work'. If
>>>>> not, you have firewalls or something else blocking traffic. When you route
>>>>> other traffic from the .1 network, the destination machines need some reason to
>>>>> send the return packets to the 192.168.236.74 address. You can either add the
>>>>> route to every machine or on the router that is currently their default router.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Les Mikesell
>>>>> lesmikesell@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Thank you Les,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, i can ping/access those 'other' services from the CentOS box with 2 NICs.
>>>>
>>>> I understand that i need, for example in a networked printer in 236. network a 'return' route. I definitely have no access to configure network on every machine in the 236 network (only a few), nor the router...
>>>>
>>>> This can't be solved any other way?
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>
>>> Hello Again,
>>>
>>> I forgot:
>>> I made a mistake in my original post, the ping is to a diferent CentOS box in the 236. network (192.168.236.80) and it replies and i can access it from the Fedora machine in the 1. net.
>>>
>>> Why the other CentOS box (in the 236. net) works (reply, can be accessed) without adding any route?
>>>
>>> The Fedora box (1. network):
>>> [jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
>>> PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
>>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=1.61 ms
>>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.684 ms
>>> [jose@IDi ~]$ ifconfig eth0 | grep -i 'inet addr'
>>> inet addr:192.168.1.3 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
>>
>> This doesn't make much sense without a route. Can you try a traceroute to the
>> fedora box address from the 192.168.236.80 box to see how/why it gets there?
>
> Sure, here it is:
>
>> From fresh reboot of the Fedora14 box:
>
> [jose@IDi ~]$ su -
> Contraseña:
> [root@IDi ~]# route add -net 192.168.236.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 gw 192.168.1.100 dev eth0
> [root@IDi ~]# logout
>
> [jose@IDi ~]$ traceroute 192.168.236.80
> traceroute to 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
> 1 puente (192.168.1.100) 0.286 ms 0.260 ms 0.239 ms
> 2 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 0.963 ms !X 0.949 ms !X 0.930 ms !X

We know why it works this direction.

> [jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
> PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.668 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.599 ms
> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=3 ttl=64 time=0.566 ms
> ^C
> --- 192.168.236.80 ping statistics ---
> 3 packets transmitted, 3 received, 0% packet loss, time 2000ms
> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.566/0.611/0.668/0.042 ms
>
> [jose@IDi ~]$ ssh 192.168.236.80
> jose@192.168.236.80's password:
> Last login: Sun Dec 19 20:44:44 2010 from 192.168.1.3
> [jose@control ~]$

I wanted the reverse path. Traceroute from the 192.168.236.80 box back to the
fedora address. It doesn't make sense that it can return packets without a
route going through the Centos box.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com





_______________________________________________
CentOS mailing list
CentOS@centos.org
http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
 
Old 12-19-2010, 07:17 PM
Michel van Deventer
 
Default Routing issue between 2 LANs

Hi,

> >>> The Fedora box (1. network):
> >>> [jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
> >>> PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
> >>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=1.61 ms
> >>> 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.684 ms
> >>> [jose@IDi ~]$ ifconfig eth0 | grep -i 'inet addr'
> >>> inet addr:192.168.1.3 Bcast:192.168.1.255 Mask:255.255.255.0
> >>
> >> This doesn't make much sense without a route. Can you try a traceroute to the
> >> fedora box address from the 192.168.236.80 box to see how/why it gets there?
> >
> > Sure, here it is:
> >
> >> From fresh reboot of the Fedora14 box:
> >
> > [jose@IDi ~]$ su -
> > Contraseña:
> > [root@IDi ~]# route add -net 192.168.236.0 netmask 255.255.255.0 gw 192.168.1.100 dev eth0
> > [root@IDi ~]# logout
> >
> > [jose@IDi ~]$ traceroute 192.168.236.80
> > traceroute to 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets
> > 1 puente (192.168.1.100) 0.286 ms 0.260 ms 0.239 ms
> > 2 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 0.963 ms !X 0.949 ms !X 0.930 ms !X
>
> We know why it works this direction.
>
> > [jose@IDi ~]$ ping 192.168.236.80
> > PING 192.168.236.80 (192.168.236.80) 56(84) bytes of data.
> > 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=1 ttl=64 time=0.668 ms
> > 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=2 ttl=64 time=0.599 ms
> > 64 bytes from 192.168.236.80: icmp_req=3 ttl=64 time=0.566 ms
> > ^C
> > --- 192.168.236.80 ping statistics ---
> > 3 packets transmitted, 3 received, 0% packet loss, time 2000ms
> > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.566/0.611/0.668/0.042 ms
> >
> > [jose@IDi ~]$ ssh 192.168.236.80
> > jose@192.168.236.80's password:
> > Last login: Sun Dec 19 20:44:44 2010 from 192.168.1.3
> > [jose@control ~]$
>
> I wanted the reverse path. Traceroute from the 192.168.236.80 box back to the
> fedora address. It doesn't make sense that it can return packets without a
> route going through the Centos box.
Yes it does make sense, if the machine in the 192.168.236.0/24 has the
centos box in the middle (the one with two LAN cards) as a default
route, then you wouldn't need a seperate route. Packets would come back.
Can you give the network settings for 192.168.236.80 ?

Can you tell us more about the network setup ? routers in both
networks ? Maybe a quick drawing should make things more clear.

If you cannot set a route on the various devices it might help to use
proxy-arp.

regards,

Michel



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