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Old 12-16-2010, 09:45 PM
Sean
 
Default two cents or not two cents

Hello Producers

"Longevity of Support" is an attractive drawcard for CentOS if it means
the exact opposite of Fedora's "short support cycle" that does not
provide updating of infrastructural libraries for very long, libraries
which newer versions of applications (like Firefox, Thunderbird, Opera
etc) depend on and which wont install unless the libraries are also
newer versions? But is that what it means -- ie that those
infrastructural libraries (libpango, libcairo etc) are continuously
updateable to fairly recent versions?

If so, the problem is in reconciling that meaning with the reputation of
CentOS to only support older versions of applications (eg Firefox-1.5,
Thunderbird-1.0 etc). It does reconcile, of course, if the implications
are merely that the CentOS user must compile and install the later
versions of such applications from source, rather than having the luxury
of pre-packaged binaries. It doesn't reconcile if there is some other
critical reason why newer such applications just wont install. But which?

I ask here because the profusion of vague mission statements and
'target-enduser-profile' claims that litter the internet re '*nix
distros' seldom actually address those real issues. And hopefully
someone can enlighten. My complex production & developement desktop
takes months to fully port to a new OS (or OS-version), so OS updates to
get library updates (ala Fedora philosophy) becomes increasingly untenable.

Then there is a further question, I'm afraid. Since CentOS also does
specifically target the profile of a so-called 'enterprise/server-user'
what does that actually entail. Does it mean concrete security
strictures which bolt down non-'root' users or does it merely mean the
availability of SELinux (but which can be turned OFF)? For instance,
(with SELinux OFF), can a user still:
(a) su root via Kterm anytime?
(b) Access services-admin anytime via Menu+Pam to control printers,
modems, daemons etc?
(c) compile
(d) have 6 to 8 desktops running
(e) call up 'konquerorsu.desktop' (root-konqueror with embedded root-Kterm)
(f) have normal cron scheduling
.................................................. ........ maybe more,
but that's a start.

Thanks for listening.

Sean



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Old 12-16-2010, 10:19 PM
Keith Roberts
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010, Sean wrote:

> To: centos@centos.org
> From: Sean <soso@orcon.net.nz>
> Subject: [CentOS] two cents or not two cents
>
> Hello Producers
>
> "Longevity of Support" is an attractive drawcard for CentOS if it means
> the exact opposite of Fedora's "short support cycle" that does not
> provide updating of infrastructural libraries for very long, libraries
> which newer versions of applications (like Firefox, Thunderbird, Opera
> etc) depend on and which wont install unless the libraries are also
> newer versions? But is that what it means -- ie that those
> infrastructural libraries (libpango, libcairo etc) are continuously
> updateable to fairly recent versions?
>
> If so, the problem is in reconciling that meaning with the reputation of
> CentOS to only support older versions of applications (eg Firefox-1.5,
> Thunderbird-1.0 etc). It does reconcile, of course, if the implications
> are merely that the CentOS user must compile and install the later
> versions of such applications from source, rather than having the luxury
> of pre-packaged binaries. It doesn't reconcile if there is some other
> critical reason why newer such applications just wont install. But which?
>
> I ask here because the profusion of vague mission statements and
> 'target-enduser-profile' claims that litter the internet re '*nix
> distros' seldom actually address those real issues. And hopefully
> someone can enlighten. My complex production & developement desktop
> takes months to fully port to a new OS (or OS-version), so OS updates to
> get library updates (ala Fedora philosophy) becomes increasingly untenable.

You might be interested in giving my ALI scripts a whirl on
a spare machine (even an old laptop) to start with, so you
get used to how they work.

I wrote these especially to deal with doing a fresh linux
installation.

http://www.karsites.net/centos/anyuser/auto-linux-installer.php

I can set up the services I want running in under 10
seconds. Beats sitting there doing it manually for 3 days!

The general idea is that you modify the installer scripts to
work with a particular system - just do it one time. Then
you can replay the scripts as often as you want, to
re-install your system.

Please let the list know if they help with your
installation/update woes.

BTW. Some applications such as Firefox need to be updated to
their latest versions, otherwise websites will not work with
an older version. I had these issues with running an
old version of FF on Fedora 8. I went from F8 to F12 using
my ALI scripts without any problems.

Kind Regards,

Keith Roberts

--
In theory, theory and practice are the same;
in practice they are not.

This email was sent from my laptop with Centos 5.5
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Old 12-16-2010, 10:20 PM
"Michael R. Dilworth"
 
Default two cents or not two cents

I'm sorry (I know don't feed the trolls), but recently
there have been quite a few remarks resembling this.
Also, I'm beginning to believe the remark made earlier
by ???, which roughly stated "Each time a new release
is due, the flame wars erupt".

Just what part of "CentOS is a Mirror or Redhat OS" do
you miss?

Now please, return to the rpm building and raid/lvm
discussions, as I find them very interesting and
educational.

michael...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: centos-bounces@centos.org [mailto:centos-bounces@centos.org]On
> Behalf Of Sean
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:46 PM
> To: centos@centos.org
> Subject: [CentOS] two cents or not two cents
>
>
> Hello Producers
>
> "Longevity of Support" is an attractive drawcard for CentOS if it means
> the exact opposite of Fedora's "short support cycle" that does not
> provide updating of infrastructural libraries for very long, libraries
> which newer versions of applications (like Firefox, Thunderbird, Opera
> etc) depend on and which wont install unless the libraries are also
> newer versions? But is that what it means -- ie that those
> infrastructural libraries (libpango, libcairo etc) are continuously
> updateable to fairly recent versions?
>
> If so, the problem is in reconciling that meaning with the reputation of
> CentOS to only support older versions of applications (eg Firefox-1.5,
> Thunderbird-1.0 etc). It does reconcile, of course, if the implications
> are merely that the CentOS user must compile and install the later
> versions of such applications from source, rather than having the luxury
> of pre-packaged binaries. It doesn't reconcile if there is some other
> critical reason why newer such applications just wont install. But which?
>
> I ask here because the profusion of vague mission statements and
> 'target-enduser-profile' claims that litter the internet re '*nix
> distros' seldom actually address those real issues. And hopefully
> someone can enlighten. My complex production & developement desktop
> takes months to fully port to a new OS (or OS-version), so OS updates to
> get library updates (ala Fedora philosophy) becomes increasingly untenable.
>
> Then there is a further question, I'm afraid. Since CentOS also does
> specifically target the profile of a so-called 'enterprise/server-user'
> what does that actually entail. Does it mean concrete security
> strictures which bolt down non-'root' users or does it merely mean the
> availability of SELinux (but which can be turned OFF)? For instance,
> (with SELinux OFF), can a user still:
> (a) su root via Kterm anytime?
> (b) Access services-admin anytime via Menu+Pam to control printers,
> modems, daemons etc?
> (c) compile
> (d) have 6 to 8 desktops running
> (e) call up 'konquerorsu.desktop' (root-konqueror with embedded root-Kterm)
> (f) have normal cron scheduling
> .................................................. ........ maybe more,
> but that's a start.
>
> Thanks for listening.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS mailing list
> CentOS@centos.org
> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
>
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Old 12-17-2010, 01:18 PM
Peter Kjellström
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:45:36 pm Sean wrote:
> Hello Producers
>
> "Longevity of Support" is an attractive drawcard for CentOS if it means
> the exact opposite of Fedora's "short support cycle" that does not
> provide updating of infrastructural libraries for very long, libraries
> which newer versions of applications (like Firefox, Thunderbird, Opera
> etc) depend on and which wont install unless the libraries are also
> newer versions? But is that what it means -- ie that those
> infrastructural libraries (libpango, libcairo etc) are continuously
> updateable to fairly recent versions?

Longevity (things continue to work without breakage for a long time):
This kind of implies "don't keep stuff continously updated to recent
versions" don't you think?

Support (help if it breaks, security updates etc.):
Is often realised by fixing bugs in the shipped versions and/or backporting
fixes.

> If so, the problem is in reconciling that meaning with the reputation of
> CentOS to only support older versions of applications (eg Firefox-1.5,
> Thunderbird-1.0 etc).

"yum list firefox" on CentOS-5 as of right now:
...
firefox.x86_64 3.6.13-2.el5.centos updates

> It does reconcile, of course, if the implications
> are merely that the CentOS user must compile and install the later
> versions of such applications from source, rather than having the luxury
> of pre-packaged binaries. It doesn't reconcile if there is some other
> critical reason why newer such applications just wont install. But which?

It's very hard to get both "I want to run the latest softwares" and "I want it
to be stable for many years". When you run something like, for example,
CentOS-5 you get stability (this means things to change completely from last
month) and a long life (you can run it with updates enabled for many years).

What you _don't_ get is the latest upstream version of libfoobar that would
allow you to build or install application-whatever.

...
> Then there is a further question, I'm afraid. Since CentOS also does
> specifically target the profile of a so-called 'enterprise/server-user'
> what does that actually entail.

It means pretty much what I've outlined above.

> Does it mean concrete security
> strictures which bolt down non-'root' users or does it merely mean the
> availability of SELinux (but which can be turned OFF)? For instance,

Enterprise vs. non-enterprise linux has very little to do with default
security behaviour. It has more to do with lifetime, support and what kind of
3rd party software and hardware it's been tested and qualified with.

/Peter

> (with SELinux OFF), can a user still:
> (a) su root via Kterm anytime?
> (b) Access services-admin anytime via Menu+Pam to control printers,
> modems, daemons etc?
> (c) compile
> (d) have 6 to 8 desktops running
> (e) call up 'konquerorsu.desktop' (root-konqueror with embedded root-Kterm)
> (f) have normal cron scheduling
> .................................................. ........ maybe more,
_______________________________________________
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:08 PM
Lamar Owen
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On Thursday, December 16, 2010 05:45:36 pm Sean wrote:
> If so, the problem is in reconciling that meaning with the reputation of
> CentOS to only support older versions of applications (eg Firefox-1.5,
> Thunderbird-1.0 etc).

Where do people get this? On one of my up to date CentOS 5 VM's:
[root@zoneminder1 ~]# cat /etc/redhat-release
CentOS release 5.5 (Final)
[root@zoneminder1 ~]# rpm -qi firefox
Name : firefox Relocations: (not relocatable)
Version : 3.6.13 Vendor: CentOS
[snip]
[root@zoneminder1 ~]# yum list thunderbird
Available Packages
thunderbird.x86_64 2.0.0.24-13.el5.centos updates
[root@zoneminder1 ~]#

On one of my CentOS 4 boxes, fully up to date:
[root@pachyderm ~]# cat /etc/redhat-release
CentOS release 4.8 (Final)
[root@pachyderm ~]# yum list firefox
Available Packages
firefox.i386 3.6.13-3.el4.centos update
[root@pachyderm ~]# yum list thunderbird
Available Packages
thunderbird.i386 1.5.0.12-34.el4.centos update
[root@pachyderm ~]#

Hmmm, how about CentOS 3 (of course, I have DAG enabled on that box, so it shows up):
[root@campus root]# cat /etc/redhat-release
CentOS release 3.9 (Final)
[root@campus root]# yum list firefox
[snip]
Looking in Available Packages:
Name Arch Version Repo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
firefox i386 0.8-3.1.el3.dag dag

And thunderbird isn't available. Not surprised at the age, though, as that's Fedora Core 1 timeframes for C3.

So on the currently supported CentOS releases, 4 and 5, Firefox 3.6.13, Firefox 3.6.13 is available. So where does this FUD of 'FF 1.5 only' come from?
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Old 12-17-2010, 02:55 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On 12/17/10 8:18 AM, Peter Kjellström wrote:
>
> Longevity (things continue to work without breakage for a long time):
> This kind of implies "don't keep stuff continously updated to recent
> versions" don't you think?

It could work that way if the upstream developers of the thousands of included
projects understood the need for backwards compatibility to keep things working.
They don't.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 12-17-2010, 03:54 PM
Lamar Owen
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On Friday, December 17, 2010 10:55:58 am Les Mikesell wrote:
> On 12/17/10 8:18 AM, Peter Kjellström wrote:
> >
> > Longevity (things continue to work without breakage for a long time):
> > This kind of implies "don't keep stuff continously updated to recent
> > versions" don't you think?
>
> It could work that way if the upstream developers of the thousands of included
> projects understood the need for backwards compatibility to keep things working.
> They don't.

In some cases the breakage is intentional. In others, components become unmaintained, or worse. Case in point: way back in KDE 1.x or 2.x days I made up some documents in KWord that included some embedded diagrams using a component included in that old KDE but not in newer KDE. Result? While KWord opens the files ok, there are no longer any embedded diagrams.

So I actually keep a really old Linux dist (Mandrake 5.3, or maybe Red Hat 6.2; can't remember at the moment, been too long) around just in case I need to open one of those files; none of the export choices in KWord of that day include the ability to export the diagrams, and I just haven't had time to convert the diagrams (it's been a long time since I needed one of those anyway, long enough that I forget the name of the component....argh....).
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:11 PM
Peter Kjellström
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On Friday, December 17, 2010 04:55:58 pm Les Mikesell wrote:
> On 12/17/10 8:18 AM, Peter Kjellström wrote:
> > Longevity (things continue to work without breakage for a long time):
> > This kind of implies "don't keep stuff continously updated to recent
> >
> > versions" don't you think?
>
> It could work that way if the upstream developers of the thousands of
> included projects understood the need for backwards compatibility to keep
> things working. They don't.

While fine in theory this wouldn't work in real life since they would have to
be backwards compatible not only for their official features but also for
bugs/quirks/unintended features.

So even if those thousands of upstream projects managed to remain (from their
perspective) perfectly backwards compatible things would still break.

Not to mention the need to break backwards compatibility once in a while to
move projects along (read: major versions).

/Peter
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:25 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On 12/17/10 10:54 AM, Lamar Owen wrote:
> On Friday, December 17, 2010 10:55:58 am Les Mikesell wrote:
>> On 12/17/10 8:18 AM, Peter Kjellström wrote:
>>>
>>> Longevity (things continue to work without breakage for a long time):
>>> This kind of implies "don't keep stuff continously updated to recent
>>> versions" don't you think?
>>
>> It could work that way if the upstream developers of the thousands of included
>> projects understood the need for backwards compatibility to keep things working.
>> They don't.
>
> In some cases the breakage is intentional. In others, components become unmaintained, or worse. Case in point: way back in KDE 1.x or 2.x days I made up some documents in KWord that included some embedded diagrams using a component included in that old KDE but not in newer KDE. Result? While KWord opens the files ok, there are no longer any embedded diagrams.
>
> So I actually keep a really old Linux dist (Mandrake 5.3, or maybe Red Hat 6.2; can't remember at the moment, been too long) around just in case I need to open one of those files; none of the export choices in KWord of that day include the ability to export the diagrams, and I just haven't had time to convert the diagrams (it's been a long time since I needed one of those anyway, long enough that I forget the name of the component....argh....).

To overgeneralize, that's one of the big differences between free and commercial
software. Commercial software that has a customer base that they can't afford
to lose will rarely break backwards compatibility, or if they do, they'll
provide conversion tools to manage the migration. But free software developers
have nothing to lose from wild and crazy changes that apparently are what they
like to do. That's what makes 'enterprise' distributions so important because
they help manage the changes. Linux would be much less popular (if you can call
it's tiny share that) without them, especially after the kernel dropped the
convention of putting its experimental changes on an odd-numbered branch.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 12-17-2010, 04:33 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default two cents or not two cents

On 12/17/10 11:11 AM, Peter Kjellström wrote:
>
>> It could work that way if the upstream developers of the thousands of
>> included projects understood the need for backwards compatibility to keep
>> things working. They don't.
>
> While fine in theory this wouldn't work in real life since they would have to
> be backwards compatible not only for their official features but also for
> bugs/quirks/unintended features.
>
> So even if those thousands of upstream projects managed to remain (from their
> perspective) perfectly backwards compatible things would still break.
>
> Not to mention the need to break backwards compatibility once in a while to
> move projects along (read: major versions).

That 'need' kind of depends on how bad your original interface designs were.
How much has the kernel needed to break from either Posix or the SysVr4 spec?

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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