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Old 12-12-2010, 04:38 PM
Eero Volotinen
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

2010/12/12 Zdenek <zdenek.w@o2.pl>:
> Hello all.
>
> Does anybody have experience with pushing CentOS in enterprise?

Yes and no. Maybe you should select RHEL for enterprises?

--
Eero
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Old 12-12-2010, 04:49 PM
Negative
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 12:26 PM, Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:

At Sun, 12 Dec 2010 17:45:23 +0100 CentOS mailing list <centos@centos.org> wrote:



>

> Hello all.

>

> Does anybody have experience with pushing CentOS in enterprise?

>

> I have the following situation. I tried to promote CentOS to local bank. They have now a couple of Gentoo-based systems and I tried to explain them that CentOS is much better option for enterprises.

>

> IT department is interested in stability of the system, so they are ready to give CentOS a try. But the problem came from management and information security division.

>

> That guys look much affected by FUD created by M$. They tell the story like "you can not rely on this open source, it is built by just few community geeks, you never know what will happen if the developer will be hit by bus tomorrow" and so on. They especially refer to the last year FUD story published at ZDNet (http://goo.gl/y0LBi). So, IT guys are allowed to use open source only if they can prove that it has stable community and transparent development and build process they can reproduce on their own if necessary.


>

> I guess, I'm not the first who encounter this issue. Could you share your experience how to deal with it? Are there any public resources that can be used as proofs of CentOS stability?

>



Have you pointed the bank people at Red Hat itself. *Red Hat is NOT a

'few community geeks' -- they are a thriving business. *Also, you

probably can mention that IBM support Linux. *IBM is most certainly NOT

a 'few community geeks'...



>

> --

>

> Zdenek

>

> _______________________________________________

> CentOS mailing list

> CentOS@centos.org

> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos

>

>



--

Robert Heller * * * * * * -- 978-544-6933 / heller@deepsoft.com

Deepwoods Software * * * *-- http://www.deepsoft.com/

() *ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail

/ *www.asciiribbon.org * -- against proprietary attachments





Management types like numbers. Here's a Cnet article that gives you the breakdown of who contributes to Linux:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13846_3-20024219-62.html


That article, in turn, refers to a Forbes piece on Red Hat and open source in general:

http://blogs.forbes.com/ciocentral/2010/11/30/red-hat-at-1-billion/


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Old 12-12-2010, 04:58 PM
Mathieu Baudier
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

> I have the following situation. I tried to promote CentOS to local bank. They have now a couple of Gentoo-based systems and I tried to explain them that CentOS is much better option for enterprises.

We deployed a CentOS based virtualized appliance for a (non-critical)
application developed by us in a bank which had similar policies.
Actually they even had an explicit official policy against any
open-source software.

We finally convinced them with the following arguments:
- we could support RHEL if they would prefer to have a big company
behind the OS and they could always decide to switch to it
- we said that we were ready to deploy it on Solaris, but they should
pay us more for that and take responsibility for any issue

> I guess, I'm not the first who encounter this issue. Could you share your experience how to deal with it? Are there any public resources that can be used as proofs of CentOS stability?

Out of common sense, and as others have suggested, I would tell them:
- if you are willing to pay and want to be safe, take RHEL (Red Hat is
about to reach $1 billion revenues http://bit.ly/eb4igX)
- if not, what makes you think that Gentoo is more viable?

CentOS definitely addresses a need in the market, and even if the
project should collapse (God forbids...), so many people needs it that
an equivalent would probably pops up quickly, based on the amazing
work which as already been done and is available.

The following chart shows for example that CentOS is very popular for
web servers:
http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux
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Old 12-12-2010, 09:38 PM
Ross Walker
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

On Dec 12, 2010, at 11:45 AM, Zdenek <zdenek.w@o2.pl> wrote:

> Hello all.
>
> Does anybody have experience with pushing CentOS in enterprise?

I do, but I have it easy because I am the IT management.

> I have the following situation. I tried to promote CentOS to local bank. They have now a couple of Gentoo-based systems and I tried to explain them that CentOS is much better option for enterprises.
>
> IT department is interested in stability of the system, so they are ready to give CentOS a try. But the problem came from management and information security division.

They are OK with the roll-your-own style of Gentoo?

Especially with it's cutting edge versions, bugs, security holes and the only way to overcome them is to upgrade to an even newer version that may break compatibility, introduce new bugs, zero-day vulnerabilities, the list goes on and on.

Gentoo is a great distro for learning Linux, in a computer lab, or for a home hobbyist, but not quite enterprise stable.


> That guys look much affected by FUD created by M$. They tell the story like "you can not rely on this open source, it is built by just few community geeks, you never know what will happen if the developer will be hit by bus tomorrow" and so on. They especially refer to the last year FUD story published at ZDNet (http://goo.gl/y0LBi). So, IT guys are allowed to use open source only if they can prove that it has stable community and transparent development and build process they can reproduce on their own if necessary.

CentOS is a recompile of RHEL with the intellectual property stripped, so you can drop-in replace it with RHEL.

> I guess, I'm not the first who encounter this issue. Could you share your experience how to deal with it? Are there any public resources that can be used as proofs of CentOS stability?

You can mix up RHEL and CentOS in the same environment. Use RHEL on key mission critical systems and CentOS on one-off systems to reduce license costs, but maintain 100% compatibility between the two.

It really is the perfect combination for my environment and I run the IT operations for a financial group which includes a commercial bank.

-Ross

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Old 12-13-2010, 03:25 AM
Nicholas
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

Is the the system for a bank need critical?

*then pay for RHEL

*else install CENTOS



Its the mentality of people and lack of exposure to technology that
hinders people from moving forward. Recently the MyGOSSCON 2010
(http://mygosscon.oscc.org.my) saw more government agencies having
joined in the move towards OSS. With some figures written by others
and examples of governments moving to OSS, some may start to
recognise what is the opportunity that is in store.





On 12/13/2010 01:38 AM, Eero Volotinen wrote:

2010/12/12 Zdenek <zdenek.w@o2.pl>:


Hello all.

Does anybody have experience with pushing CentOS in enterprise?



Yes and no. Maybe you should select RHEL for enterprises?

--
Eero
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--
Nicholas A. Suppiah



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Old 12-13-2010, 09:02 AM
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

> They are OK with the roll-your-own style of Gentoo?
>
> Especially with it's cutting edge versions, bugs, security holes and the only way to overcome them is to upgrade to an even newer version that may break compatibility, introduce new bugs, zero-day vulnerabilities, the list goes on and on.

So, you are saying that other OSes, even other Linux distributions, have no
bugs, security holes, compatibility issues and zero-days? Looks like we don't
need M$ to spread FUD about Linux, we're well capable of doing it ourselves

> Gentoo is a great distro for learning Linux, in a computer lab, or for a home hobbyist, but not quite enterprise stable.

There are in fact people who run Gentoo in the Enterprise, and it's up to the
sysadmin to decide which upgrade policies to implement. While this would not
necessarily be my personal choice, it's perfectly legit. As is running Windows
should the powers that be require it.

> You can mix up RHEL and CentOS in the same environment. Use RHEL on key mission critical systems and CentOS on one-off systems to reduce license costs, but maintain 100% compatibility between the two.

Agreed.



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Old 12-13-2010, 11:48 AM
Nico Kadel-Garcia
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 5:02 AM, <lhecking@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
>> They are OK with the roll-your-own style of Gentoo?
>>
>> Especially with it's cutting edge versions, bugs, security holes and the only way to overcome them is to upgrade to an even newer version that may break compatibility, introduce new bugs, zero-day vulnerabilities, the list goes on and on.
>
> *So, you are saying that other OSes, even other Linux distributions, have no
> *bugs, security holes, compatibility issues and zero-days? Looks like we don't
> *need M$ to spread FUD about Linux, we're well capable of doing it ourselves

Now, now, sports fans, let's be nice.

Gentoo *is* a problem in production use, due to factors such as
feature creep and component discrepancies. Its constant influx of
"secret sauce" to correct layout skew and component inconsistency
between differentn upstream projects, and that constant update and
possible overlap and overwriting by the installation tools, is begging
for pain in stable environments.

RHEL is much better about that, although by now the "production" RHEL
5 is 4 years out of date, the "leading edge" RHEL 6 is now one year
out of date after the lengthy release testing, and CentOS will always
lag that.

>> You can mix up RHEL and CentOS in the same environment. Use RHEL on key mission critical systems and CentOS on one-off systems to reduce license costs, but maintain 100% compatibility between the two.
>
> *Agreed.

Also, don't forgot to contribute or actually *purchase* the licenses
for the one you use. Explaining to freeloaders that companies, and
projects, will die and leave them alone and unsupported without some
return of value from them is a big issue. Sadly or not, a lot of my
recent clients have considered my sending patches upstream to open
source projects to be as much as they're willing to provide. This can
actually work out in hourly rates.....
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:31 PM
Ross Walker
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

On Dec 13, 2010, at 5:02 AM, lhecking@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

>> They are OK with the roll-your-own style of Gentoo?
>>
>> Especially with it's cutting edge versions, bugs, security holes and the only way to overcome them is to upgrade to an even newer version that may break compatibility, introduce new bugs, zero-day vulnerabilities, the list goes on and on.
>
> So, you are saying that other OSes, even other Linux distributions, have no
> bugs, security holes, compatibility issues and zero-days? Looks like we don't
> need M$ to spread FUD about Linux, we're well capable of doing it ourselves

You got me all wrong here. I'm only saying that in Gentoo

>> Gentoo is a great distro for learning Linux, in a computer lab, or for a home hobbyist, but not quite enterprise stable.
>
> There are in fact people who run Gentoo in the Enterprise, and it's up to the
> sysadmin to decide which upgrade policies to implement. While this would not
> necessarily be my personal choice, it's perfectly legit. As is running Windows
> should the powers that be require it.
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:37 PM
Ross Walker
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

On Dec 13, 2010, at 5:02 AM, lhecking@users.sourceforge.net wrote:

>> They are OK with the roll-your-own style of Gentoo?
>>
>> Especially with it's cutting edge versions, bugs, security holes and the only way to overcome them is to upgrade to an even newer version that may break compatibility, introduce new bugs, zero-day vulnerabilities, the list goes on and on.
>
> So, you are saying that other OSes, even other Linux distributions, have no
> bugs, security holes, compatibility issues and zero-days? Looks like we don't
> need M$ to spread FUD about Linux, we're well capable of doing it ourselves

You got me all wrong here, I'm merely trying to say that Gentoo doesn't backport bug fixes and security updates to the current versions and therefore to fix these one has to upgrade to newer versions which may break compatibility with the existing environment.

>> Gentoo is a great distro for learning Linux, in a computer lab, or for a home hobbyist, but not quite enterprise stable.
>
> There are in fact people who run Gentoo in the Enterprise, and it's up to the
> sysadmin to decide which upgrade policies to implement. While this would not
> necessarily be my personal choice, it's perfectly legit. As is running Windows
> should the powers that be require it.

Agreed, if the risk is acceptable for the purpose then of course run the software you wish.

-Ross

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Old 12-13-2010, 04:22 PM
Brian Mathis
 
Default Issues with CentOS in enterprise

On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Zdenek <zdenek.w@o2.pl> wrote:
> Hello all.
>
> Does anybody have experience with pushing CentOS in enterprise?
>
> I have the following situation. I tried to promote CentOS to local bank. They have now a couple of Gentoo-based systems and I tried to explain them that CentOS is much better option for enterprises.
>
> IT department is interested in stability of the system, so they are ready to give CentOS a try. But the problem came from management and information security division.
>
> That guys look much affected by FUD created by M$. They tell the story like "you can not rely on this open source, it is built by just few community geeks, you never know what will happen if the developer will be hit by bus tomorrow" and so on. They especially refer to the last year FUD story published at ZDNet (http://goo.gl/y0LBi). So, IT guys are allowed to use open source only if they can prove that it has stable community and transparent development and build process they can reproduce on their own if necessary.
>
> I guess, I'm not the first who encounter this issue. Could you share your experience how to deal with it? Are there any public resources that can be used as proofs of CentOS stability?
>
> --
> Zdenek


This sounds a lot more like a religious war from the people who think
that using Gentoo is the "right" way to do things because it's pure
from source, etc... The fact that they already have Gentoo means they
are not opposed to Open Source per se, just that they seem to look at
Redhat as the "MS of the Linux world", and have some kind of prejudice
against that.

The only way to combat this view is to highlight all the problems of
maintaining things from source code, and to show the benefits of a
standard platform. Be prepared for a high amount of dismissiveness,
attitude, and flat out accusations that "maintaining from source isn't
that hard and if you can't do it you're obviously not qualified for
the job". This is a sure sign of an amateur sysadmin or someone who
thinks a sysadmin is just a person too dumb to be a programmer. As
for the standard platform thing, just look at what all major vendors
support for Linux, and you can bet that Redhat is #1 on the list.

As for concerns about the community going away, it's quite easy to
point out that all commercial software also has this risk, and that
risk could actually be higher since they have to maintain profits.
And since when can you build any commercial software from source if
the company goes out of business?
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