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Old 08-04-2010, 11:47 AM
Whit Blauvelt
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 12:56:47PM +0300, Dotan Cohen wrote:

> I'm Middle Eastern and I subscribe to the list to search it, not to
> ask redundant questions. I'm still a noob and I did recently ask a
> question that I could not google, but your generalization is a bit
> broad.
>
> I should also note that Middle Easterners may likely subscribe more to
> the "help your neighbour" philosophy than the "dog eat dog"
> philosophy, which means that we might feel freer to ask a voluntary
> community such as this one than might a Westerner. That's a cultural
> difference, not Hadi being rude. Simple culture clash. Don't be so
> quick to judge him.

Yes, the initial comment about Middle Eastern people was "a bit broad."
Apologies that anyone would say that here.

So is the notion that "help your neighbor" is more Middle Eastern and "dog
eat dog" more, what, American? The Middle East currently has Al Qaeda,
Hizbolla, Hamas, the Taliban, the IDF ... all embracing a philosophy for
which "dog eat cog" would be too kind a label. I'm sure from some
perspectives the same thing can be said of US and NATO forces in the area.

On the other hand the free, open software community came out of the more
free and open societies of the West, and a tradition of neighborly sharing
that goes back to barn raisings and village greens and a whole bunch of
customs which aren't "dog eat dog" at all.

The problem with Hadi isn't cultural. He's a troll, posting to many lists at
once questions that he's made up to annoy people - he can't possibly need to
install a Red Hat partition on CentOS, Debian and Ubuntu all at once. We
have Western trolls too. The trick is not to respond to them.

Best regards,
Whit
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Old 08-04-2010, 12:20 PM
Niki Kovacs
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

Whit Blauvelt a écrit :

>
> So is the notion that "help your neighbor" is more Middle Eastern and "dog
> eat dog" more, what, American? The Middle East currently has Al Qaeda,
> Hizbolla, Hamas, the Taliban, the IDF ... all embracing a philosophy for
> which "dog eat cog" would be too kind a label. I'm sure from some
> perspectives the same thing can be said of US and NATO forces in the area.
>

I'm Austrian and I live in a small village in South France. I'm on
excellent terms with my neighbour, who comes from a small village in
Morocco. Sometimes, we help each other out to borrow salt, milk, flour,
pepper or some other ingredient we forgot to buy in town, twelve
kilometers away.

I've read through a few messages of Mr Hadi Motamedi, and his attitude
seems to be more like: hey, man, can you please come over to my flat and
cook my dinner?

Cheers,

Niki
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Old 08-04-2010, 01:00 PM
Stephen Harris
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

On Wed, Aug 04, 2010 at 07:47:34AM -0400, Whit Blauvelt wrote:
> So is the notion that "help your neighbor" is more Middle Eastern and "dog
> eat dog" more, what, American? The Middle East currently has Al Qaeda,


Please, people, could you take this off-list?


--

rgds
Stephen
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Old 08-04-2010, 02:57 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

On 8/4/2010 7:20 AM, Niki Kovacs wrote:
> Whit Blauvelt a écrit :
>
>>
>> So is the notion that "help your neighbor" is more Middle Eastern and "dog
>> eat dog" more, what, American? The Middle East currently has Al Qaeda,
>> Hizbolla, Hamas, the Taliban, the IDF ... all embracing a philosophy for
>> which "dog eat cog" would be too kind a label. I'm sure from some
>> perspectives the same thing can be said of US and NATO forces in the area.
>>
>
> I'm Austrian and I live in a small village in South France. I'm on
> excellent terms with my neighbour, who comes from a small village in
> Morocco. Sometimes, we help each other out to borrow salt, milk, flour,
> pepper or some other ingredient we forgot to buy in town, twelve
> kilometers away.
>
> I've read through a few messages of Mr Hadi Motamedi, and his attitude
> seems to be more like: hey, man, can you please come over to my flat and
> cook my dinner?

Aren't we all pretty comfortable with using thousands of man-hours of
other people's work for free? And, his posts are a tiny percentage of
this thread and I can't see where anyone else has added much useful
content either, nor do I see much point in bringing up ethnicity.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com

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Old 08-04-2010, 04:02 PM
Bobby
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

On Wednesday, August 04, 2010 10:57:58 am Les Mikesell wrote:

> Aren't we all pretty comfortable with using thousands of man-hours of
> other people's work for free? And, his posts are a tiny percentage of
> this thread and I can't see where anyone else has added much useful
> content either, nor do I see much point in bringing up ethnicity.

I feel this modified thread is valid in as so far as evaluating who should be
helped.

Generally I believe that one is as valuable as one helps his fellow man.
At the same time helping someone who's not Willing to help himself is not good
for anyone. And I'd rather err on the safe side.

Technical subjects can often put people to sleep due to lack of understanding
which results in fumbling and idiotic questions. To remotely label someone
troll or whatever, Correctly, is not easy.

Asking how to run a command even though there are man pages, web documents,
books etc, does not in my mind make it less valid question, due to the "mind
cloud" one can get engulfed in. It is far to easy to decide that people can
easily find an answer themselves if they try.

I don't often follow threads as I'm simply to busy. But every now and then I
have a few seconds and if I see a question I can answer, I'll do it.

Someone went as far as sending me an offline email saying that I should not
help him. Again I'd rather err on giving too much help than too little. Maybe
he's right in the assessment, I don't know.

--

Bobby
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

Les Mikesell wrote:
> On 8/4/2010 7:20 AM, Niki Kovacs wrote:
>> Whit Blauvelt a écrit :
>>
>>>
>>> So is the notion that "help your neighbor" is more Middle Eastern and
>>> "dog eat dog" more, what, American? The Middle East currently has Al
Qaeda,
>>> Hizbolla, Hamas, the Taliban, the IDF ... all embracing a philosophy
>>> for which "dog eat cog" would be too kind a label. I'm sure from some
>>> perspectives the same thing can be said of US and NATO forces in the
>>> area.
>>
>> I'm Austrian and I live in a small village in South France. I'm on
>> excellent terms with my neighbour, who comes from a small village in
>> Morocco. Sometimes, we help each other out to borrow salt, milk, flour,
>> pepper or some other ingredient we forgot to buy in town, twelve
>> kilometers away.
>>
>> I've read through a few messages of Mr Hadi Motamedi, and his attitude
>> seems to be more like: hey, man, can you please come over to my flat and
>> cook my dinner?
>
> Aren't we all pretty comfortable with using thousands of man-hours of
> other people's work for free? And, his posts are a tiny percentage of
> this thread and I can't see where anyone else has added much useful
> content either, nor do I see much point in bringing up ethnicity.

I agree that where he's from is irrelevant - we've seen the same of
Indians, and French, I think... and more than enough lazy American idiots,
as well.

However, he is, indeed, pulling what I referred to in my proposed FAQ as
"asking us to do his job for him". And, for that matter, if he actually
*has* RHEL, he's presumably paid for it, and it's his *job*, for which he
is presubably getting paid, and he wants us to do it for free.

mark

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Old 08-05-2010, 02:49 PM
"R-Elists"
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

mark

the FAQ suff is a good idea...

in fact, when people singup, they should have to agree to list rules or be
pointed to them on signup.

i wonder though, seriously, does the "teach a man to fish" principle really
apply?

ie LMGTFY type stuff or ???

or cluesticks?

;->

as far as lazy, it is hard to find motivated people that want to
work/participate. they just want paychecks.

- rh

>
> However, he is, indeed, pulling what I referred to in my
> proposed FAQ as "asking us to do his job for him". And, for
> that matter, if he actually
> *has* RHEL, he's presumably paid for it, and it's his *job*,
> for which he is presubably getting paid, and he wants us to
> do it for free.
>
> mark
>

>

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Old 08-05-2010, 03:49 PM
Scott Robbins
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:49:36AM -0700, R-Elists wrote:
> mark
>
> the FAQ suff is a good idea...
>
> in fact, when people singup, they should have to agree to list rules or be
> pointed to them on signup.

I co-moderate an ancient beginners' list on yahoo--we have something
like that, but it's almost useless. They say they read it, they even
have to type something halfway intelligent to join the list, but
really don't seem to have actually read the FAQ.

--
Scott Robbins
PGP keyID EB3467D6
( 1B48 077D 66F6 9DB0 FDC2 A409 FA54 EB34 67D6 )
gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys EB3467D6

Cordelia: You're just a souless bloodsucking demon. They're
LAWYERS
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Old 08-05-2010, 03:54 PM
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

Scott Robbins wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 07:49:36AM -0700, R-Elists wrote:
>> mark
>>
>> the FAQ suff is a good idea...
>>
>> in fact, when people singup, they should have to agree to list rules or
>> be pointed to them on signup.
>
> I co-moderate an ancient beginners' list on yahoo--we have something
> like that, but it's almost useless. They say they read it, they even
> have to type something halfway intelligent to join the list, but
> really don't seem to have actually read the FAQ.

Ah, but then, instead of slamming them, we can just deluge them with the
FAQ....

mark

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Old 08-05-2010, 04:22 PM
Stephen Harris
 
Default Dogs, trolls, and neighborly free/open source

On Thu, Aug 05, 2010 at 11:49:07AM -0400, Scott Robbins wrote:
> have to type something halfway intelligent to join the list, but
> really don't seem to have actually read the FAQ.

No one reads FAQs. They're a relic of the old guard (what, read the FAQ
and monitor a newsgroup for a week before joining in? Huh! What a bizarre
notion! I need answers now!!!). I autopost a FAQ to a few newsgroups
on a monthly basis and still no one ever reads it.

--

rgds
Stephen
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