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Old 10-03-2008, 11:15 PM
Scott Silva
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

on 10-3-2008 3:30 PM Vandaman spake the following:
> Bill Campbell wrote:
>
>> Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and
>> think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'
>> and less intimidating to newbies.
>
>> I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight
>> charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with
>> interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.
>
> It will be interesting if things went like so :-
>
> - a CentOS Ivory Tower List for those on top of Ivory Towers.
> - a CentOS OT list full of 419 scammers, salesmen/affiliates posts
> - a CentOS n00b list for n00bs
>
> Regards,
> Vandaman.
>
You forgot the CentOS Full of themselves list and the CentOS I'm gonna whine
like I own the place list.

Can we get back to our regularly scheduled banter?

List Admins set the tone, and only List Admins can spank users.

Every one else is just along for the ride!

It's Friday night people!
Lets all just get along and have a beverage together -- separately! ;-P




--
MailScanner is like deodorant...
You hope everybody uses it, and
you notice quickly if they don't!!!!

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Old 10-03-2008, 11:25 PM
MHR
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Scott Silva <ssilva@sgvwater.com> wrote:
>
> You forgot the CentOS Full of themselves list and the CentOS I'm gonna whine
> like I own the place list.
>
> Can we get back to our regularly scheduled banter?
>
> List Admins set the tone, and only List Admins can spank users.
>
> Every one else is just along for the ride!
>
> It's Friday night people!
> Lets all just get along and have a beverage together -- separately! ;-P
>

Where, oh where, is Jim when we need him?

:-)

mhr
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:32 AM
Anne Wilson
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Friday 03 October 2008 21:33:09 Vandaman wrote:

> Karanbir Singh wrote:

> > And yea, working on setting up a sort of list to handle

> > much of this semi OT traffic. More news on that around

> > Wed next week, dint ask about it now.

>

> Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long

> as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked

> but one in which the OP has not even done basic research

> on his problem.

>

> One distro had a "brainflash" a number of years ago - create

> a list for expert users and one for newbies. It didn't take

> long for the newbies to realise that there was no one to

> help and so flooded the "expert list". This put off the

> "experts".

>

Not true - if you mean Mandrake/Mandriva. For several years the newbie and expert lists worked well. People used the newbie list and quite a few knowledgeable people supported it. Then the OT stuff got out of hand and experts stopped reading it, so people started using the expert list for newbie questions. That was OK until the OT stuff got out of hand, then experts stopped reading it. There were, however, other issues as to why experts moved away, which are not relevant to this discussion.



> On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the

> flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list

> guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation

> without as much as a hint.

>

And that is rude and thoughtless. Newbies don't necessarily know how and where to look for help.



> Would a new list really solve anything or would it close

> one door and open another?

>

That would depend on whether the list is valued enough for people to respect it.



Anne
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:35 AM
Anne Wilson
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Friday 03 October 2008 22:23:16 Bill Campbell wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 03, 2008, Ned Slider wrote:

> > Vandaman wrote:

> >> Off course people are going to ask. In my opinion as long

> >> as a topic is marked OT, it is preferable to one not marked

> >> but one in which the OP has not even done basic research on his

> >> problem.

> >

> > It may be preferable to YOU, but marking something OT doesn't stop it

> > wasting MY bandwidth or clogging up MY inbox does it?

>

> That's what incoming mail filters are for :-). I must admit that

> I do the vast majority of my e-mail using mutt which makes it

> extremely easy for me to delete threads unread. This is usually

> much more time-consuming with GUI or web mail clients.

>

If your account is pop3 only you don't have that option



> Personally I have no problem with the occassional OT thread, and

> think that, within reason, they can make a list more ``friendly'

> and less intimidating to newbies.

>

as long as OT threads stay short, I agree. Long rambling pointless ones I can do without.



> I also prefer more general lists to those that have very tight

> charters as I learn quite a bit when I see threads with

> interesting subjects that I might not see otherwise.

>

Agreed about content, but having a code of conduct doesn't affect that.



Anne


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Old 10-04-2008, 11:09 AM
"William L. Maltby"
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 08:32 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
> On Friday 03 October 2008 21:33:09 Vandaman wrote:
> <snip>

> > On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the
>
> > flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list
>
> > guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation
>
> > without as much as a hint.
>
> >
>
> And that is rude and thoughtless. Newbies don't necessarily know how
> and where to look for help.

Respectfully, I disagree. There is an expectation (apparently
unreasonable in today's society) that newcomers will make themselves
aware of the courtesies and protocols used on a given list. If they
haven't done so, or choose to make no effort to conform, why should
*our* valuable time be wasted on such? It is better to only waste the
OPs time. Having said that, most denizens do make an effort to point the
offender in the right direction and even help. But all have limits
unique to them. Their time is not for others to waste.

So, I don't consider it rude and inconsiderate. It is, IMO, very
courteous and considerate when compared to some alternatives I've seen
used. It is a matter of personal choice.

Just as in the real world, there is certain behavior expected from those
with whom I *choose* to interact. Rudeness tends to be POV-centric.

>
> > Would a new list really solve anything or would it close
>
> > one door and open another?
>
> >
>
> That would depend on whether the list is valued enough for people to
> respect it.

True, true. But as I know you've seen, there are those who respect
nothing other than their own needs.

>
> Anne
> <snip sig stuff>

MHO
--
Bill

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Old 10-04-2008, 01:27 PM
Anne Wilson
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Saturday 04 October 2008 12:09:04 William L. Maltby wrote:
> On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 08:32 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
> > On Friday 03 October 2008 21:33:09 Vandaman wrote:
> > <snip>
> >
> > > On some mailing lists, long time users are put off by the
> > >
> > > flood of posts by newbies who don't even conform to the list
> > >
> > > guidelines. Some pay back by not replying to those in violation
> > >
> > > without as much as a hint.
> >
> > And that is rude and thoughtless. Newbies don't necessarily know how
> > and where to look for help.
>
> Respectfully, I disagree. There is an expectation (apparently
> unreasonable in today's society) that newcomers will make themselves
> aware of the courtesies and protocols used on a given list. If they
> haven't done so, or choose to make no effort to conform, why should
> *our* valuable time be wasted on such? It is better to only waste the
> OPs time. Having said that, most denizens do make an effort to point the
> offender in the right direction and even help. But all have limits
> unique to them. Their time is not for others to waste.
>
> So, I don't consider it rude and inconsiderate. It is, IMO, very
> courteous and considerate when compared to some alternatives I've seen
> used. It is a matter of personal choice.
>
> Just as in the real world, there is certain behavior expected from those
> with whom I *choose* to interact. Rudeness tends to be POV-centric.
>
Then we must agree to differ. I consider it thoughtful to tell them once what
is expected of them - and politely, which is not always the case on this or
any other list I've read. Of course if they persist in breaking the rules,
then they ask to be ignored IMO

Anne
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Old 10-04-2008, 03:31 PM
"William L. Maltby"
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 14:27 +0100, Anne Wilson wrote:
> <snip>

> >
> Then we must agree to differ. I consider it thoughtful to tell them once what
> is expected of them - and politely, which is not always the case on this or
> any other list I've read. Of course if they persist in breaking the rules,
> then they ask to be ignored IMO

I don't think we disagree. I also consider it thoughtful to politely
"educate" newcomers. But that is *my* choice that fits with *my*
standards. I was reminded when I was younger that I could not
arbitrarily apply my standards to others. That stuck with me. That
allowed me to step out of my own shoes and see things from other
perspectives. Given that, not responding may not be rude. It may be due
to lack of time. It may be one does not care. It may be ... well, many
other things.

I also agree with you about the "impolite" (I would, if in a generous
mood, term it "brusque") posts by many of this list. I choose not to
waste my time calling them on it. I figure "their momma didn't raise
them right" and I would be unlikely to affect their behavior. Obviously
ego-centric personalities.

That's their problem, won't become mine.

>
> Anne
> <snip sig stuff>

--
Bill

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Old 10-04-2008, 06:59 PM
"Jim Perrin"
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 7:25 PM, MHR <mhullrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> Where, oh where, is Jim when we need him?

Don't even think of trying to call me a voice of reason on this!

While I am usually a fan of organization, and I do try on irc to keep
things in their place, however in this case, I think another channel
is simply managing human behavior with a technical solution, and I'm
not generally a fan of doing that.

There is a tremendous amount of wisdom across a fairly broad spectrum
on this list, and most if not all folks on this list are members of
multiple other lists as well. I don't want to see the knowledge and
expertise in this channel diluted across other centos related venues
simply because a few folks don't like the noise level.

What I'd like to see is channel members asking detailed questions
showing thought, research, depth and manners with respect to sane
email clients and mailing list netiquette. I'd like to see well
thought out responses from experienced individuals showing both a
willingness to help, and an expert grasp of whatever topic is at hand.
I'd like to see the light email banter back and forth to keep the
channel light, but not enough to drive the low bandwidth users away.
I'd also like to see list members display some courtesy and not allow
the lighter threads to span 100's of posts, with replies to stop
replying.

In short, no I don't favor splitting up the list. I want sanity on the list.


Of course, I also want world peace and a pony. Just my $0.02.


--
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
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Old 10-06-2008, 09:43 AM
Ralph Angenendt
 
Default Proposed New Mailing List

Vandaman wrote:
> It will be interesting if things went like so :-
>
> - a CentOS Ivory Tower List for those on top of Ivory Towers.
> - a CentOS OT list full of 419 scammers, salesmen/affiliates posts
> - a CentOS n00b list for n00bs

Nobody ever proposed that.

Ralph
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