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Milos Blazevic 01-14-2011 05:16 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Hi all,

in respect of the "recent" CentOS forum thread, (found here
https://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=28126&forum=3 8)
I wrote a "Sun/Oracle Java Installation Manual for CentOS 5" - posted on
my Wiki Profile page, http://wiki.centos.org/MilosBlazevic?action=show
and would like update the Java Wiki page with this content.

Of course, for this to happen only after a thorough revision of the
manual by the community. All critics and suggestions are most welcome.

Now, regarding the current JavaOnCentOS Wiki page:
I'm fully aware of the "cry-outs" that the whole page needs a revision
and a maintainer, and I'm willing to contribute in the form of "Java
installation manual for desktop users", which is IMHO vaguely covered on
the Java Wiki, section 3.1 "Java for the desktop user". Now don't get me
wrong, although installing self-extracting .rpm is far from rocket
science, novice users usually find it disappointing to find out that
OpenJDK is still in use after they install a self-extracting .rpm
binary. And this often leads to forum threads like the mentioned one above.

Anyway, the proposed article is supposed to deal with this and a few
other minor matters (eg. a number of sun-javadb*.rpm files found in the
working directory after the installation). Of course, I'd also like to
discuss and possibly revise other parts of the current page, but sadly
most of it (namely "Java for the developer and the server environment")
apart from not being my field, is also more time consuming than I can
afford at the moment.


Looking forward to your comments.

--
*Kind regards,*
*Milos Blazevic*

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Ralph Angenendt 01-15-2011 07:39 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Am 14.01.11 19:16, schrieb Milos Blazevic:
> Hi all,
>
> in respect of the "recent" CentOS forum thread, (found here
> https://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=28126&forum=3 8)
> I wrote a "Sun/Oracle Java Installation Manual for CentOS 5" - posted on
> my Wiki Profile page, http://wiki.centos.org/MilosBlazevic?action=show
> and would like update the Java Wiki page with this content.

To me the article looks good, if you can incorporate it into the current
wiki article (and not just replace that).

> Of course, for this to happen only after a thorough revision of the
> manual by the community. All critics and suggestions are most welcome.

Okay, I haven't thouroughly reviewed it, but didn't find obvious issues
while reading it :)

Regards,

Ralph
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Jasper Siepkes 01-16-2011 11:30 AM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Hi All,

First of all thanks for taking the time to write a clear howto.

I'm a Java developer and have boxes running CentOS with Java so I
thought it might come in handy to share what I know about Java on
CentOS.

I have never used the Sun provided RPM's. I always used the JPackage
nosrc rpm:
http://www.jpackage.org/browser/rpm.php?jppversion=5.0&id=8526 . I
modified these to accommodate the Java version I needed. The latest
version you can download from JPackage is 1.6.0-14 so I modified it to
fit version 21.

The reason for not using the Sun provided RPM's but those generated by
JPackage is because the Sun RPM's do not adhere to LSB standards (see
http://bugs.sun.com/view_bug.do?bug_id=4680244 ). So that means for
example it doesn't install man pages into /usr/share/man but just throws
everything into one directory.

I usually create symlinks with 'alternatives' to the following java
apps:

* java (main JRE)
* javac (Java compiler)
* javaws (Java Webstart)
* keytool (Java tool to manage key/trust stores)

If anyone is interested I could put up a wiki page outlining the steps
to create RPM's with JPackage ?

Kind regards,

Jasper

On Sat, 2011-01-15 at 21:39 +0100, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
> Am 14.01.11 19:16, schrieb Milos Blazevic:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > in respect of the "recent" CentOS forum thread, (found here
> > https://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=28126&forum=3 8)
> > I wrote a "Sun/Oracle Java Installation Manual for CentOS 5" - posted on
> > my Wiki Profile page, http://wiki.centos.org/MilosBlazevic?action=show
> > and would like update the Java Wiki page with this content.
>
> To me the article looks good, if you can incorporate it into the current
> wiki article (and not just replace that).
>
> > Of course, for this to happen only after a thorough revision of the
> > manual by the community. All critics and suggestions are most welcome.
>
> Okay, I haven't thouroughly reviewed it, but didn't find obvious issues
> while reading it :)
>
> Regards,
>
> Ralph
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-docs mailing list
> CentOS-docs@centos.org
> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs


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Ralph Angenendt 01-16-2011 11:42 AM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Am 16.01.11 13:30, schrieb Jasper Siepkes:

> If anyone is interested I could put up a wiki page outlining the steps
> to create RPM's with JPackage ?

It's all about choice (isn't _23 the current one, though?). So if you
want to write something up which can also be put on that page, feel free
- different people seem to have different needs :)

Regards,

Ralph
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Phil Schaffner 01-16-2011 01:03 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Ralph Angenendt wrote on 01/15/2011 03:39 PM:
...
> To me the article looks good, if you can incorporate it into the current
> wiki article (and not just replace that).

I beg to differ. The current Wiki article contains a lot of confusing
and obsolete information, and in trying to cover a multitude of Java
versions and different approaches for CentOS 4 and 5, fails to do any of
it well. Modifying it to merge in still more approaches such as the two
currently under discussion in this thread, and soon CentOS 6, will add
additional confusion.

I would propose instead that a new "cover page" replace the current
page. It should comprise an introduction to Java on CentOS; briefly
discuss JRE, JDK, alternatives, and browser plugins; and provide links
to sub-pages; one of which may be the current page and/or multiple
sub-pages derived from it. Each subpage of JavaOnCentOS should be a
concise method to install a particular Java flavor on a specific CentOS
version, and should include its own detailed procedure on alternatives
and plugins if appropriate. Obsolete pages and information could either
be pruned or preserved in a "Historical" section. The two new
submissions should each get their own sub-page. A section at the end,
perhaps "Other Voices", could point to recommended external pages, such
as parts of the Jpackage site, or other HowTos.

If this approach is accepted I would be glad to help draft the cover
page, and to help with polishing sub-pages; having over the years dealt
with JDK via Sun(Oracle) RPMs, building JDK via the Jpackage approach,
and simple JRE/plugin installations.

Phil
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Phil Schaffner 01-16-2011 01:13 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Jasper Siepkes wrote on 01/16/2011 07:30 AM:
...
> If anyone is interested I could put up a wiki page outlining the steps
> to create RPM's with JPackage ?

Very much so, particularly your spec mods and details on your
alternatives configuration, which seems to cover more bases than I have
done in the past.

Phil
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Manuel Wolfshant 01-16-2011 01:15 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
On 01/16/2011 04:03 PM, Phil Schaffner wrote:
> Ralph Angenendt wrote on 01/15/2011 03:39 PM:
> ...
>> To me the article looks good, if you can incorporate it into the current
>> wiki article (and not just replace that).
> I beg to differ. The current Wiki article contains a lot of confusing
> and obsolete information, and in trying to cover a multitude of Java
> versions and different approaches for CentOS 4 and 5, fails to do any of
> it well. Modifying it to merge in still more approaches such as the two
> currently under discussion in this thread, and soon CentOS 6, will add
> additional confusion.
>
> I would propose instead that a new "cover page" replace the current
> page. It should comprise an introduction to Java on CentOS; briefly
> discuss JRE, JDK, alternatives, and browser plugins; and provide links
> to sub-pages; one of which may be the current page and/or multiple
> sub-pages derived from it. Each subpage of JavaOnCentOS should be a
> concise method to install a particular Java flavor on a specific CentOS
> version, and should include its own detailed procedure on alternatives
> and plugins if appropriate.
right


> Obsolete pages and information could either
> be pruned or preserved in a "Historical" section.
neah. the old page should be either updated or deleted/replaced. it's
close to useless as it is now.


> The two new
> submissions should each get their own sub-page. A section at the end,
> perhaps "Other Voices", could point to recommended external pages, such
> as parts of the Jpackage site, or other HowTos.
>
> If this approach is accepted I would be glad to help draft the cover
> page, and to help with polishing sub-pages; having over the years dealt
> with JDK via Sun(Oracle) RPMs, building JDK via the Jpackage approach,
> and simple JRE/plugin installations.
Your idea looks fine to me. The existing page is so obsolete that I
never pointed anyone to it during the last year... I always suggested
"download Sun's rpm, install, go live your life"
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Ralph Angenendt 01-16-2011 03:26 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Am 16.01.11 15:15, schrieb Manuel Wolfshant:
> On 01/16/2011 04:03 PM, Phil Schaffner wrote:

>> If this approach is accepted I would be glad to help draft the cover
>> page, and to help with polishing sub-pages; having over the years dealt
>> with JDK via Sun(Oracle) RPMs, building JDK via the Jpackage approach,
>> and simple JRE/plugin installations.
> Your idea looks fine to me. The existing page is so obsolete that I
> never pointed anyone to it during the last year... I always suggested
> "download Sun's rpm, install, go live your life"

I'm fine with that. Java is completely over my horizon, regarding usage.
If it doesn't run with openjdk, I normally don't run it, neither on
servers nor on desktops.

So that probably leaves two instructions (well, three) for that page:

a) Use openjdk (if on 5, 6)
b) Use SUN JDK/JRE if the above does not work for you, here's how to do
it.
c) Use jpackage nosrc.rpms if you insist on compliance to FHS

For b) and c) stress that people *must* care about updates for themselves.

Bonus points: Here's how to use Java in your browser. Especially stress
the update issue here.

Do I see that correctly?

Ralph

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Ralph Angenendt 01-16-2011 03:27 PM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
Am 16.01.11 15:15, schrieb Manuel Wolfshant:
> On 01/16/2011 04:03 PM, Phil Schaffner wrote:

>> Obsolete pages and information could either
>> be pruned or preserved in a "Historical" section.
> neah. the old page should be either updated or deleted/replaced. it's
> close to useless as it is now.

I'm with Manuel here. Don't keep things just because they were there once.

Ralph
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Manuel Wolfshant 01-17-2011 07:31 AM

HowTos/JavaOnCentOS Wiki page revision?
 
On 01/16/2011 06:26 PM, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
> Am 16.01.11 15:15, schrieb Manuel Wolfshant:
>> On 01/16/2011 04:03 PM, Phil Schaffner wrote:
>>> If this approach is accepted I would be glad to help draft the cover
>>> page, and to help with polishing sub-pages; having over the years dealt
>>> with JDK via Sun(Oracle) RPMs, building JDK via the Jpackage approach,
>>> and simple JRE/plugin installations.
>> Your idea looks fine to me. The existing page is so obsolete that I
>> never pointed anyone to it during the last year... I always suggested
>> "download Sun's rpm, install, go live your life"
> I'm fine with that. Java is completely over my horizon, regarding usage.
> If it doesn't run with openjdk, I normally don't run it, neither on
> servers nor on desktops.
>
> So that probably leaves two instructions (well, three) for that page:
>
> a) Use openjdk (if on 5, 6)
> b) Use SUN JDK/JRE if the above does not work for you, here's how to do
> it.
> c) Use jpackage nosrc.rpms if you insist on compliance to FHS
>
> For b) and c) stress that people *must* care about updates for themselves.
>
> Bonus points: Here's how to use Java in your browser. Especially stress
> the update issue here.
>
> Do I see that correctly?
Absolutely right.
Bonus points for emphasizing that the rpms derived from the .nosrc.rpm
MUST be recreated at each update. Which is what finally made me give up
using this approach. IIRC I wanted to automate the process , but with
each [minor] release there were small diffs which invited to manual
intervention, hence making the automated build impossible.

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