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Old 09-13-2012, 10:31 PM
Brian Mathis
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 5:44 PM, <me@tdiehl.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Sep 2012, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>> On 09/13/2012 06:42 PM, Jeff Sheltren wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 8:32 AM, Karanbir Singh<mail-lists@karan.org> wrote:
>>>> hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> One bit of feedback at LinuxCon this year from people was that we should
>>>> ship epel with a lower barrier to entry. And I have mixed feelings about
>>>> that. But I wanted to know what everyone else thinks about :
>>>>
>> But for those who do not have prior
>> knowledge, like it or not, yum install epel-release is way easier than
>> to follow "go read our wiki page on adding 3rd party repos and pay
>> attention to priorities". Yes, I know, they should read/learn. But
>> helping them by excluding the "hunt for epel-release and install it"
>> part will not hurt.
>
> And yum install http://download.fedoraproject.org/pub/epel/6/i386/epel-release-6-7
> is hard?
>
> Googling "install epel-release" gets the following url:
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/EPEL/FAQ#How_can_I_install_the_packages_from_the_EPEL_s oftware_repository.3F
>
> If they can find IRC they should be able to follow enough directions to
> google as above.
>
> Oh and in case it is not clear I am in the do nothing camp.
>
> Regards,
> Tom


We must immediately stop drawing a distinction between "those idiots"
and "the knowledgeable people" because it has nothing to do with that.
Anyone who thinks that needs to grow up and realize that making life
easier has nothing to to with "dumbing things down", but in fact is
the very point of advancing technology.

The process of automating installation is always about eliminating one
step here or there. I could easily say that following an install
document using copy/paste is easy enough and that scripting or
automating via puppet/chef is just a waste of time and only coddles to
the idiots who can't follow instructions. A few years ago some of you
might have agreed, but not today.


The "do nothing" approach has absolutely no advantage. There is no
one forcing you to use the packages. The only people it gains are the
ones who want to use it, and the only people it hurts is .. nobody.
It's up to the CentOS release team if they want to keep the packages
up to date. Otherwise, it affects nobody else negatively.

As is typical of a discussion like this, everyone is ignoring the
second part of the request, which is discussing the standards that
should be used when deciding to include a repo in the repository.

I typically use priorities for all 3rd party repos, but there is no
simple way to configure that directly via a package install. It seems
that the inclusion of any 3rd party repos would have to solve that
problem somehow. Are there any yum modules that provide protection
and don't require manual editing of yum repo files?

Another idea is something along the lines of the cr repo, where there
is a package in the extras repo that will enable a "3rd-party" repo
which actually contains the -release packages. The "3rd-party"
package could have some requirements of it's own, such as
yum-priorities, etc... Admittedly that's a bit convoluted, and may
not make things easier, but it's a way of trying to bring in other
packages without modifying the original -release packages.


❧ Brian Mathis
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:33 PM
Manuel Wolfshant
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On 09/14/2012 01:24 AM, John R. Dennison wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:41:01AM +0300, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>> Disabling the repo brings only additional headaches. I already see the
>> questions in IRC: "I've installed the release rpm but I still can not
>> install any package from the repo. Why is that ?"
> Because they've not taken the time to investigate on their own. Because
> they've not taken the time to read man yum.conf. Because if centos
> doesn't ship it support gets punted to the repo channel or mailing list
> in question for them to deal with.
Correct. But it's also correct that 90% of those users could not care
less about all that reading. I do not endorse that behaviour but it's
easier to help them fulfil their needs and forget about their existence
by providing the release rpm than support their bashing or telling them
to go read this and that.



>> Exactly . Ship the current $repo-release in centos-extras. Similar to
>> what SL does for several repos and to what IUS does for EPEL as well.
> Who cares what SL does? Who cares what IUS does?
I do. We are not alone in the world.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:36 PM
Manuel Wolfshant
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On 09/14/2012 01:27 AM, John R. Dennison wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:50:15AM +0300, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>> I beg to differ here. As long as we clearly specify that we just SHIP
>> the release rpm for users' convenience but not ENDORSE and that ALL
>> support is to be taken from EPEL, I am sure that people will understand.
>> A polite "please ask for help in #epel or on the epel mailing list" will
>> definitely be all that is needed.
> Does a pony come with that?
Nope.

> People will want support from centos via
> irc and mailing list.
And I am VERY good in telling people "We do not support that here but
you can ask at ..." in a polite way ( if I want to ) or in a rude way (
also if I want to )

> You should really know that by now
I do. I already have 12 years of supporting crap from users


> People are an entitled lot these days.
Wrong. People THINK that they are entitled. Sometime they are right,
sometime they are wrong.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:36 PM
"John R. Dennison"
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:53:11AM +0300, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> Right. Only that you KNEW what to google for. Incidentally you also took
> for granted that the package name is "epel-release".

Google for "epel on centos" or "hwo to use epel with centos" or anything
else and you will get the same results.

> If only that was true...

And that's centos' problem... how? Again, re-thinking of career paths
comes to mind.

I'm not trying to single you out here, Manuel, even though it probably
seems like it from the thread, and my apologies if you think I am. I
just don't see any merit to this idea whatsoever; it's an idiotic one
from the get-go. Either people are able to cope with a real OS or they
are not. Catering to those that aren't is just going to increase
support burdens on people on the lists and irc channels for little, if
any, positive outcome.

Adding a repo is not rocket science. If there are issues then fix the
centos wiki. But from my last read of that page it should be pretty
straight-forward if people read and follow links where needed.




John
--
Like its politicians and its wars, society has the teenagers it deserves.

-- John Boynton Priestley (1894-1984), English playwright, novelist, and
broadcaster
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:40 PM
"John R. Dennison"
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 06:28:52PM -0400, Brian Mathis wrote:
> One message with your derogatory crap is enough. Please read the
> whole thread and just reply once. There's no need to spew for every
> single message you feel the need to comment on.

Learn to use filters. I read the whole thread. I reply to messages in
a threaded order. If that doesn't meet your requirements, well, tough.
I'm not here to please you, nor, frankly, do I care if you don't like
it.




John
--
We can only be said to be alive in those moments when our hearts are conscious
of our treasures.

-- Thornton Wilder (17 April 1897 - 7 December 1975) American playwright
and novelist
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:44 PM
"John R. Dennison"
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 01:36:12AM +0300, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
> Nope.

Bummer; I wanted one.

> And I am VERY good in telling people "We do not support that here but
> you can ask at ..." in a polite way ( if I want to ) or in a rude way (
> also if I want to )

*shrug* The point remains that shipping this is going to make users
believe it is supported whatever wording you may care to use to the
contrary.

> Wrong. People THINK that they are entitled. Sometime they are right,
> sometime they are wrong.

Entitlement is always, without a single exception, wrong in an
environment where they are getting something for free.




John
--
"Whenever two people meet, there are really six people present. There is each
man as he sees himself, each man as the other person sees him, and each man
as he really is."

-- William James
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:04 PM
Manuel Wolfshant
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On 09/14/2012 01:36 AM, John R. Dennison wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 12:53:11AM +0300, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>> Right. Only that you KNEW what to google for. Incidentally you also took
>> for granted that the package name is "epel-release".
> Google for "epel on centos" or "hwo to use epel with centos" or anything
> else and you will get the same results.
Or not. Google results are tailored based on your previous searches. A
friend of mine I used to work for was very excited to see his company
listed as second in google's results on his specific queries performed
from his office workstation. Guess what? It was not even on the second
page when his sister performed the same search from her home computer.

>> If only that was true...
> And that's centos' problem... how? Again, re-thinking of career paths
> comes to mind.
It's not. But helping them does not hurt anyone and increases those
users' satisfaction level.


>
> I'm not trying to single you out here, Manuel, even though it probably
> seems like it from the thread, and my apologies if you think I am.
There is no need for apologies. We are just professionals debating a
technical thing and that's all.
Not to mention that I also play a bit of the devil's advocate role. I
help when I can/want in and out the official support channels. I am not
a fan of spoon feeding but I do it from time to time if I find it
useful. In this particular case my perception is that lowering the
barrier will help users. Even the fact that the issue was raised at
LinuxCon proves that there exists a need. And the sad truth is that no
matter what WE as professionals want, users do what they want. And most
of the time they want to do as little as possible. Quality is a nice
thing to have. However people would rather pay for convenience instead.


> I just don't see any merit to this idea whatsoever; it's an idiotic one
> from the get-go. Either people are able to cope with a real OS or they
> are not.
I know quite a few people who see the computer as a tool and nothing
else. They need this specific tool to solve a problem and they are not
willing to invest their time into learning more than a minimal needed to
have things going. I know that in an ideal world all those should read
the fine manuals but if you are a physicist interested in just having a
local $whatever server which will help you and your colleagues to share
data you will not spend more than the bare minimum of your time into
setting it up. And the lower this barrier, the better for those people.
You and me are professionals and dedicate most of our time to computers.
Those who would benefit from the lower barrier are not. They will not
use kickstarts because they do not have the infra for that. They would
not use puppet. They would not use spacewalk ( what the hack, I do not
use spacewalk ! ). They would just boot from an install disk, click
click , Once done they just use putty to connect to it and they want to
add whatever they are missing without spending time in bing ( yes, bing
might very well be their default search engine and you know very well
why ). THOSE are the people who need a lower entry barrier.


> Catering to those that aren't is just going to increase
> support burdens on people on the lists and irc channels for little, if
> any, positive outcome.
Based on what I've seen on IRC during the last months I think the
opposite is true.


>
> Adding a repo is not rocket science. If there are issues then fix the
> centos wiki. But from my last read of that page it should be pretty
> straight-forward if people read and follow links where needed.
Try to imagine that you read that after it has been translated by google
from a language you do not understand. CentOS is quite used by people
who do not grasp English well enough. Sometimes (by choice or not..)
even by people who have limited computer knowledge. Lowering the barrier
helps them with no impact on those with proper knowledge.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:11 PM
Manuel Wolfshant
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On 09/14/2012 01:44 AM, John R. Dennison wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 01:36:12AM +0300, Manuel Wolfshant wrote:
>> Nope.
> Bummer; I wanted one.
I know a few links on gerdesas.com from where you can download pony
images free of charge


>> And I am VERY good in telling people "We do not support that here but
>> you can ask at ..." in a polite way ( if I want to ) or in a rude way (
>> also if I want to )
> *shrug* The point remains that shipping this is going to make users
> believe it is supported whatever wording you may care to use to the
> contrary.
And we will tell them that they are wrong. Simple enough.
Join me in #centos-social and I can tell you a fresh story about a guy
who needed not less than 5 minutes to understand that "The coach will
take you from the gas station which is 50 m from your hotel, around the
corner. The only gas station in a 5 km radius". Conversation taking
place and instructions being given to him by a guide who was a native
speaker of his own language so there were no translation errors involved.


>> Wrong. People THINK that they are entitled. Sometime they are right,
>> sometime they are wrong.
> Entitlement is always, without a single exception, wrong in an
> environment where they are getting something for free.
>
once again: we will tell them that they are wrong (when they are ).
Simple enough.

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Old 09-14-2012, 12:51 AM
Akemi Yagi
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Manuel Wolfshant
<wolfy@nobugconsulting.ro> wrote:
> On 09/14/2012 01:24 AM, John R. Dennison wrote:

>>> Exactly . Ship the current $repo-release in centos-extras. Similar to
>>> what SL does for several repos and to what IUS does for EPEL as well.
>> Who cares what SL does? Who cares what IUS does?

> I do. We are not alone in the world.

I do, too. I have been in both CentOS and SL communities for some time
now and see a number of people helping in both places. I tend to think
all clones are members of a big family. Family members may have
quarrels but they can help each other as well.

In this particular case, as already pointed out by others, the
-release packages are not installed by default in SL, so for most
users they are non-existent. But having the -release rpm available in
SL actually benefited me more than a few times. When helping someone
who needs to install a kmod package from ELRepo, for example, it is
just 2 commands away; yum install elrepo-release rpm and the kmod
itself.

Akemi
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:34 AM
Nux!
 
Default Shipping an EPEL release

On 13.09.2012 16:32, Karanbir Singh wrote:
> hi guys,
>
> One bit of feedback at LinuxCon this year from people was that we
> should
> ship epel with a lower barrier to entry. And I have mixed feelings
> about
> that. But I wanted to know what everyone else thinks about :
>
> 1) Shipping epel-release in CentOS-Extras, so its installable, usable
> out of the box.
>
> 2) Shipping epel-release in the distro itself, with the epel repos's
> enabled=false. This is the option that most people seem to want, but
> I
> am least keen on.
>
> 3) do nothing, leave things as they are.
>
> Ofcourse, if we do either (1) or (2) we would need to set some sort
> of a
> baseline standard that allows other repo's to be included as well (
> as +
> if they meet the baseline standard )
>
> regards,

I'd go with 1.

Elrepo should be considered, too.

--
Sent from the Delta quadrant using Borg technology!

Nux!
www.nux.ro
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