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Old 08-17-2012, 10:00 PM
Ned Slider
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

On 17/08/12 22:45, Matthew Patton wrote:
>
> While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
>
> bind-utils
> ntp
> nc
> man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?)
> wget
>

From the docs:

"The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a
minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no
compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware."

Running 'yum install foo' immediately after install pretty much solves
all of the above.

The minimal CD doesn't aim to be everything to everyone (the DVD does
that), but rather a minimal set of packages designed to leave the user
with a system with network and yum capability so they may then install
the additional packages they require.

I'm sure we could all come up with a list of 5 "must have" packages that
should go on the CD but then it won't be minimal any more will it?

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Old 08-17-2012, 10:13 PM
"Matthew Patton"
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

On Fri, 17 Aug 2012 18:00:39 -0400, Ned Slider <ned@unixmail.co.uk> wrote:

> "The aim of this disk is to install a CentOS 6.3 system which has a
> minimum of packages needed to have a functional system, with no
> compromise regarding security and fully network and yum aware."

yes I get the sentiment. Ok strike 'man' and 'ntp'. But netcat and
bind-utils are TROUBLESHOOTING tools. When the install is done and your
machine don't work, it's mighty nice to be able to see if you have more
than 'ping' working. If name resolution isn't working 'yum' isn't going to
be productive. My rationale for wget is so that in a pinch you can get
files be they config, RPM or whatever. NFS-utils is in there which could
be argued is of less import.

I'm not trying to argue unnecessarily here but minimal should IMO be more
than just the exact number of packages left over after we've managed to
remove every last thing we could.

My piece has been said. Talk amongst yourselves.

--
Cloud Services Architect, Senior System Administrator
InfoRelay Online Systems (www.inforelay.com)
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:17 PM
"James A. Peltier"
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

----- Original Message -----
| On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 1:05 PM, James A. Peltier <jpeltier@sfu.ca>
| wrote:
| >
| >
| > I see many reasons to have people rewrite their scripts. It's so
| > that we can move forward with technology.
|
| It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented
| processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it is
| really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility.
|
| --
| Les Mikesell
| lesmikesell@gmail.com

My case is that the new fashion has been that way for years as deemed by the Upstream Provider. If the end user that being us admins, can't keep up with the vendors way of doing this then we should be sysadmins. vconfig isn't used any more. It hasn't been used in years. It was provided as a dependancy previously and as mentioned that dependency was removed. The fact that the original poster has not updated his scripts to keep up to date with the Upstream Provider's methods of doing this is the original poster's fault not that of CentOS team. Can it be added, sure! Does it need to be added when the user can and *should* upgrade their scripts, IMHO, no.

--
James A. Peltier
Manager, IT Services - Research Computing Group
Simon Fraser University - Burnaby Campus
Phone : 778-782-6573
Fax : 778-782-3045
E-Mail : jpeltier@sfu.ca
Website : http://www.sfu.ca/itservices
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Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached
in life but as by the obstacles they have overcome. - Booker T. Washington
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:57 PM
Les Mikesell
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 5:17 PM, James A. Peltier <jpeltier@sfu.ca> wrote:
> |
> | It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented
> | processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it is
> | really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility.
> |

> My case is that the new fashion has been that way for years as deemed by the Upstream Provider. If the end user that being us admins, can't keep up with the vendors way of doing this then we should be sysadmins.

And my case is that things that don't maintain backwards compatibility
for arbitrary reasons waste other people's time unnecessarily and are
thus philosophically evil. The details don't matter much. People
should be able to reuse their work.

--
Les Mikesell
lesmikesell@gmail.com
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:09 PM
Manuel Wolfshant
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

On 08/18/2012 12:45 AM, Matthew Patton wrote:
>
>> So with that in mind, fancy trying again ?
> pretty please can we put this in the minimal distro? *beg*
> Having multiple copies of a 4G DVD iSO (I have sites all over the place)
> really burns a lot of disk for no good reason. Or maybe "disk1" should be
> like RHEL of yore? About<600MB and it had everything reasonable to expect
> of a basic system?
See below my answer on that. To put it short: your wish will come true.

> While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
>
> bind-utils
> ntp
> nc
> man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?)
If it was my decision , for the minimal.iso I would tweak anaconda to do
echo "%_excludedocs 0" >> /etc/rpm/macros
prior to install

> wget
>
All the packages that you mentioned and quite a few more will be
included in a CD image which should appear once I manage to make more
free time than I had during the last 6-8 weeks. All the bits needed to
complete the work for this new iso are in my yard but several unrelated
events happened at once and required most of my time since end of June.

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Old 08-17-2012, 11:16 PM
"James A. Peltier"
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

----- Original Message -----
| On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 5:17 PM, James A. Peltier <jpeltier@sfu.ca>
| wrote:
| > |
| > | It's technology, not fashion. If the 'new' breaks old documented
| > | processes it isn't moving forward, it is just different. If it
| > | is
| > | really better, it should easily maintain backwards compatibility.
| > |
|
| > My case is that the new fashion has been that way for years as
| > deemed by the Upstream Provider. If the end user that being us
| > admins, can't keep up with the vendors way of doing this then we
| > should be sysadmins.
|
| And my case is that things that don't maintain backwards
| compatibility
| for arbitrary reasons waste other people's time unnecessarily and are
| thus philosophically evil. The details don't matter much. People
| should be able to reuse their work.
|
| --
| Les Mikesell
| lesmikesell@gmail.com


Deprecation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the process of authoring computer software, its standards or documentation, or other technical standards, deprecation is a status applied to features, characteristics, or practices to indicate that they should be avoided, typically because they have been superseded.

Although deprecated software features remain in the software, their use may raise warning messages recommending alternative practices, and deprecation may indicate that the feature will be removed in the future. Features are deprecated—rather than immediately removed—in order to provide backward compatibility, and give programmers who have used the feature enough time to bring their code into compliance with the new standard.

vconfig was deprecated in RHEL 6. It's a simple as that. In fact the use of vconfig began to be discouraged back in 2005. They do not need to support deprecated methods for ever. If 6 years of of documentation states to not use vconfig and instead use ip commands instead aren't enough, what is?

Listen, there's tons of code out there that use old implementations of C ifdef's that I have had to fix because newer compilers no longer support them. I support software for a living and so I know it hard work, but people need to keep up. There's a reason we don't all write all our code in assembler. There are better tools for the job today.

--
James A. Peltier
Manager, IT Services - Research Computing Group
Simon Fraser University - Burnaby Campus
Phone : 778-782-6573
Fax : 778-782-3045
E-Mail : jpeltier@sfu.ca
Website : http://www.sfu.ca/itservices
http://blogs.sfu.ca/people/jpeltier

Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached
in life but as by the obstacles they have overcome. - Booker T. Washington
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:17 PM
Karanbir Singh
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

On 08/17/2012 10:45 PM, Matthew Patton wrote:
> which is irrelevant. ifcfg scripts require the specially formatted files
> to exist or be generated via NOW documents. Dynamic environments don't
> hard code things like that.

agreed

> Having multiple copies of a 4G DVD iSO (I have sites all over the place)
> really burns a lot of disk for no good reason. Or maybe "disk1" should be
> like RHEL of yore? About <600MB and it had everything reasonable to expect
> of a basic system?

Christoph pointed to these on irc a short while back :
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=714035 and
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=645796 - I think they are
both relevant here.

> While I'm at it, a minimal system shouldn't be lacking the following IMO.
>
> bind-utils
> ntp
> nc
> man (the packages install all the manpages, so why not a way to read them?)
> wget
>

Since the early days of CentOS-6, we've spoken about getting another
install type called the Lightweight Server media going - perhaps its
time to kick that effort back in a bit, and get these packages added in
( but it would still be quite nice to get a real user story, or stories
together as to the real problems we hope to fix with that ).

--
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:20 PM
Karanbir Singh
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

On 08/17/2012 11:57 PM, Les Mikesell wrote:
> And my case is that things that don't maintain backwards compatibility
> for arbitrary reasons waste other people's time unnecessarily and are
> thus philosophically evil. The details don't matter much. People
> should be able to reuse their work.
>

I dont think anyone is saying that the old way should go away completely
- but if there are better alternatives that do more, then carrying
excess baggage on the minimal CD might not be ideal.

eg. if you so wish uucp is still usable. you just need to get through a
few hops

--
Karanbir Singh
+44-207-0999389 | http://www.karan.org/ | twitter.com/kbsingh
ICQ: 2522219 | Yahoo IM: z00dax | Gtalk: z00dax
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Old 08-18-2012, 12:08 AM
"Matthew Patton"
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

Just throwing these out there as reference.

https://access.redhat.com/knowledge/docs/en-US/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux/6/pdf/Installation_Guide/Red_Hat_Enterprise_Linux-6-Installation_Guide-en-US.pdf

<quote>
Only the most commonly used commands are available in the pre-installation
environment:
arping, awk, basename, bash, bunzip2, bzcat, cat, chattr, chgrp, chmod,
chown, chroot,
...
umount, uniq, vconfig, vi, wc, wget, xargs, zcat.
^^^^^^^
</quote>

So it was only last year that RH got all traces of vconfig out of the
standard scripts and tools. Good for them. However, there are lots of
references like these:

http://www.serkey.com/vlan-configuration-native-vlan-and-setting-pvid-bcu5dw.html
http://wiki.xensource.com/xenwiki/XenNetworking

These directly reference vconfig, include official sources, and are
reasonably recent.

I'm not arguing that IP-Utils hasn't been the "more correct" solution for
years or that any new script I write I should use the right tool. Only
pointing out that vconfig is very much entrenched into the psyche of
sysadmins, many of whom still use RHEL4 and RHEL5 as well as Ubuntu and
other rot and we very much don't intend to have multiple versions of our
scripts. Vconfig has been a stable in such things as vif-bridge scripts
for KVM or Xen for years. If you look at CloudStack and I'll bet anything
OpenStack has them by the bushel too.

But as has been said, "yum install vconfig" and we can go away chuffed. If
the intent is for "minimal" to be pure and legacy free, then I can live
with it.

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Old 08-19-2012, 06:29 PM
Christoph Galuschka
 
Default please add vnconfig to minimal install CD

Hi,

just to add these links from upstream:
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=714035
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=645796

Both state basically that vconfig is scheduled for removal from
upstream, allthough it is not stated in which release.

cheers
Christoph


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