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Old 02-17-2011, 09:16 PM
Ralph Angenendt
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

First thing: I am sorry that this mail comes this late, it should have
been there a week earlier.

Second: At Fosdem we sat together with a round of people, trying to
identify which parts CentOS has that are facing to the community, which
parts need renewing and which contents should go / has to go where.

We identified 5 parts, some of which can and will stay as they are
(mostly), some which need to change. And we discussed some architectural
things.

What we did not discuss was which software should be used where,
although for many pieces this already has been chosen.

At the end of the mail I will talk about some pros and cons to this
approach.

- Bug reporting against the CentOS components

We will continue to use mantis as our bug tracker, so there will be no
change in software there, maybe an update to the newest version, if that
can be done without too many issues.

- Wiki

The wiki will find it's role as being about the distribution side of
things (read on for an explanation). All documentation about the project
which is generated by the project and community members will go on the
wiki. This means FAQs, all help material for users, Howtos and Tipps,
but also QA content (see the QaTeam section) and the main Release Notes
and translations. MoinMoin will be used there for the time coming.

Planning of events where CentOS will be shown will still happen on the wiki.

- Website

The website will be about the project side of things. Firstly it should
be a starting point for all users - a role which it does not really play
at the moment. Where to download the distribution, what is current,
where to get help if you need it, pointers to things people can help
with - all that should be easily found on the website.

Also on the website will be generated content for CentOS. This means the
hosting of upstream documentation, automated content via RSS (so
planet.centos.org shouldn't be it's own page anymore, those Feeds should
be on the website), Twitter feeds and so on. No decision on whose feeds
should be found on there have been made yet.

If you are looking for events, where you can talk to people who are
around CentOS should also be found on the website.

Mirrors, mirror status and general infrastructure content will also be
on the website.

Downloads for projects within CentOS should also be found here (like
Artwork, special CD isos, or whatever you can think of a project within
the CentOS eco system)

Aim is to have something which can be automatically filled in parts, and
be easy to access and update in the other parts.

The website is for finished things.

- Forums

Forums at the moment are an integral part of the website. They will need
to move, as we sure are moving away from the current content management
system. We already know how to migrate those forums into php-bb, so we
will go with that.

- Projects

People wanting to run projects or Special Interest Groups (SIGs) within
CentOS need a place to develop. We have projects.centos.org for that,
which has it's own wiki, bug tracker and version control system for
those projects. Once things are in a releasable state, those releases
should go to a part of the main web site.

projects.centos.org is for developing things.

- Glue

At the moment we have different user databases for everything except
website and forums. This has to change. As far as we've found out, every
piece of software we use at the moment can be coaxed to authenticate
against an LDAP database. We want to order those accounts by email (make
that the primary key, as it has to be unique) and try to merge them into
one large database. Logging in will still be done on username / password
or on the wiki with WikiName / password, where your WikiName will be one
of the attributes your account has in the LDAP backend.

This has some issues: We will invariably have lots of doubled accounts,
as people might have subscribed to the website with a different mail
address than to the wiki. We will need to weed out spammer acocunts,
something which probably will not be easy.

This is something which will still need discussion on how to do it, and
especially on how to do the transition correctly, so that it does not
have a large impact on users.

- Mailing lists

Last issue, as there won't be any changes there.

Pros and Cons:

- Pros

Clear division of which content will go where. This also means that a
clearer presentation of content can be done on all parts, not the muddle
we have there at the moment.

One user database allows all users to access parts of the CentOS
infrastructure with only one account, although representations of those
accounts may differ among applications, like the wiki, where the
FirstnameLastname account naming still is wanted. This doesn't mean that
you can automatically write on the wiki once you have an account, the
procedure will mostly stay as it is at the moment.

With one user database, only one place is needed to distinguish users
from bots: The place where you register your account. Another plus: the
schema is extendable, should the need arise.

- Cons

Some software might need to be convinced to play well with LDAP
authentication.

Links between forum posts might go away, I am not sure if there is a
possibility to find out the new target of a link.

As already mentioned above: Merging the user accounts will probably be a
rather largish task: Find out which accounts haven't been used for a
certain time, weed out spammer's accounts out of those which have been
actively used, find out which accounts belong together, retaining
editing rights on the wiki, maybe moving the forum status (rookie,
newbie, pro and whatever they are called) to the new forums.

We don't have a central account management solution at the moment, this
also needs to be written or snarfed from somewhere, and then adapted to
our needs.

Conclusion:

With the content division in mind, there now is a clearer view of what
needs to go where. With a central user database, we make many things
easier for users and for the people maintaining the different parts of
"the CentOS web".

Now please discuss if you can live with what is written above, if you
see things differently, if you have other ideas and so on. Please try to
not extend what is above too much, as that already looks like a rather
largish move.

Ah yes, we'd like to stay with the layout we have on wiki.centos.org
throughout the whole eco system if possible. No idea if it is needed on
bugs.centos.org or lists.centos.org, though.

For actual execution we will use Atrium for planning, more on how to set
up your account there will come after this discussion.

Thanks for reading this far (and please trim your mails when replying
only to parts of this mail!).

Ralph

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Old 02-17-2011, 11:49 PM
Nico Kadel-Garcia
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Ralph Angenendt
<ralph.angenendt@gmail.com> wrote:

> - Glue
>
> At the moment we have different user databases for everything except
> website and forums. This has to change. As far as we've found out, every
> piece of software we use at the moment can be coaxed to authenticate
> against an LDAP database. We want to order those accounts by email (make
> that the primary key, as it has to be unique) and try to merge them into
> one large database. Logging in will still be done on username / password
> or on the wiki with WikiName / password, where your WikiName will be one
> of the attributes your account has in the LDAP backend.

Dear Lord, yes, that makes sense.

> This has some issues: We will invariably have lots of doubled accounts,
> as people might have subscribed to the website with a different mail
> address than to the wiki. We will need to weed out spammer acocunts,
> something which probably will not be easy.

Also, people like me might say something different from a work email
account than from a personal account.

I worry about using the email address as the key, because it makes it
very difficult to *preserve* a user's history across address changes.
I like my GMail account, but I've had old Comcast or university
accounts from which I submitted bugs to RHEL years ago. If I'm not
mistaken, index management by numerical keys can often be
significantly faster than by text keys.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:24 AM
Guenther Boelter
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 02/18/2011 06:16 AM, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
> First thing: I am sorry that this mail comes this late, it should have
> been there a week earlier.
>
> Second: At Fosdem we sat together with a round of people, trying to
> identify which parts CentOS has that are facing to the community, which
> parts need renewing and which contents should go / has to go where.

As an ordinary user I think, that's really a good idea. And in my
opinion you should start with the centos.org homepage.

For somebody, he don't know the details, the CentOS-Project look a
little bit dead. That's one reason, why here in asia so many people are
using Ubuntu now, and that's really a pity.

Imagine, the could use CentOS with the power of RedHat and they are
using Ubuntu, that's not good ...

BTW: Have you ever thought about Drupal for that?

Good luck!

Guenther

- --
DavaoSOFT, the home of ERPel
ERPel, das deutsche Warenwirtschaftssystem fuer LINUX
http://www.davaosoft.com
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:53 AM
James Hogarth
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

I wouldn't use the email due to DB query time plus it makes updating the email address trickier when it changes.



Sent from Android Mobile

On 18 Feb 2011 06:24, "Guenther Boelter" <gboelter@gmail.com> wrote:> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1

>
> On 02/18/2011 06:16 AM, Ralph Angenendt wrote:
>> First thing: I am sorry that this mail comes this late, it should have
>> been there a week earlier.
>>
>> Second: At Fosdem we sat together with a round of people, trying to

>> identify which parts CentOS has that are facing to the community, which
>> parts need renewing and which contents should go / has to go where.
>
> As an ordinary user I think, that's really a good idea. And in my

> opinion you should start with the centos.org homepage.
>
> For somebody, he don't know the details, the CentOS-Project look a
> little bit dead. That's one reason, why here in asia so many people are

> using Ubuntu now, and that's really a pity.
>
> Imagine, the could use CentOS with the power of RedHat and they are
> using Ubuntu, that's not good ...
>
> BTW: Have you ever thought about Drupal for that?

>
> Good luck!
>
> Guenther
>
> - --
> DavaoSOFT, the home of ERPel
> ERPel, das deutsche Warenwirtschaftssystem fuer LINUX
> http://www.davaosoft.com

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> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> CentOS-devel mailing list
> CentOS-devel@centos.org

> http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-devel

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Old 02-18-2011, 07:20 AM
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

James Hogarth wrote:
> I wouldn't use the email due to DB query time plus it makes updating the
> email address trickier when it changes.
>

+1 for normal autoincrement primary key.

Then you can connect several email accounts to that key. Possible
enhancement is to make one of the email accounts the primary with
special field in the DB. That will designate the master account after
the database is normalized.

Ljubomir
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Old 02-18-2011, 07:41 AM
Ljubomir Ljubojevic
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

Guenther Boelter wrote:
> For somebody, he don't know the details, the CentOS-Project look a
> little bit dead. That's one reason, why here in asia so many people are
> using Ubuntu now, and that's really a pity.
>
> Imagine, the could use CentOS with the power of RedHat and they are
> using Ubuntu, that's not good ...
>

This is not exactly the reason. CentOS 5.x is not really suited for
complete Desktop use. I had to add 100-120 packages to my repository
from various sources and download locations, and even create ~50
packages (for example latest Skype for CentOS 5.x and binding packages
for Open Office 3.2 rpms). Also udev and a lot of other core components
are too old for use with newer versions of important desktop applications.

Things will be changed when CentOS 6.0 becomes available. Much has
changed in last 3-4 years in Linux desktop world. From new multimedia
applications, to wine/wingames support and much larger and more complete
hardware support. Even hardware manufacturers have adopted practice to
take care about linux drivers.

CentOS 6.x will have modern kernel and core components, but it has
stable enviroment and that will be it's booster amongst Desktop
distributions. I've waited this moment in time for at least 2 years, for
RHEL/CentOS to catch up with Ubuntu and Fedora, but to be rock solid.
Modern but bug free, what using Linux should be all about. My belief is
that release of 6.0 will be one of the most important moments in CentOS
history, and will mark the time when it will start to be more rapidly
adopted by general Linux population.

Ljubomir
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:07 AM
Guenther Boelter
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 02/18/2011 04:41 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote:
> Guenther Boelter wrote:
>> For somebody, he don't know the details, the CentOS-Project look a
>> little bit dead. That's one reason, why here in asia so many people are
>> using Ubuntu now, and that's really a pity.
>>
>> Imagine, the could use CentOS with the power of RedHat and they are
>> using Ubuntu, that's not good ...
>>
>
> This is not exactly the reason. CentOS 5.x is not really suited for
> complete Desktop use.

> Ljubomir

Sorry Ljubomir, my mistake, I was not clear in my first post.

No, I'was refering to the 'Ubuntu Server Edition'. And I agree, CentOS
is a great OS for a server, it's a little bit pure as a Desktop-Edition,
but that's totally ok.

Guenther

- --
DavaoSOFT, the home of ERPel
ERPel, das deutsche Warenwirtschaftssystem fuer LINUX
http://www.davaosoft.com
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Old 02-18-2011, 04:23 PM
Andrea Veri
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

Il giorno 17/feb/2011, alle ore 23.16, Ralph Angenendt ha scritto:

>
> Also on the website will be generated content for CentOS. This means the
> hosting of upstream documentation, automated content via RSS (so
> planet.centos.org shouldn't be it's own page anymore, those Feeds should
> be on the website), Twitter feeds and so on. No decision on whose feeds
> should be found on there have been made yet.
>


Nice idea! Drupal do have a feed's module!


> If you are looking for events, where you can talk to people who are
> around CentOS should also be found on the website.
>
> Mirrors, mirror status and general infrastructure content will also be
> on the website.
>
> Downloads for projects within CentOS should also be found here (like
> Artwork, special CD isos, or whatever you can think of a project within
> the CentOS eco system)
>
> Aim is to have something which can be automatically filled in parts, and
> be easy to access and update in the other parts.
>
> The website is for finished things.
>


I agree with all the above. We just need to define which software to use
and then we should just roll up our sleeves and start making this real.

Will wait the next step.


Andrea

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Old 02-18-2011, 07:16 PM
Ralph Angenendt
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

Am 18.02.11 01:49, schrieb Nico Kadel-Garcia:
> I worry about using the email address as the key, because it makes it
> very difficult to *preserve* a user's history across address changes.
> I like my GMail account, but I've had old Comcast or university
> accounts from which I submitted bugs to RHEL years ago. If I'm not
> mistaken, index management by numerical keys can often be
> significantly faster than by text keys.

I meant primary key not from a technical, but from a, hmmm, logical
viewpoint. If we have double user names, like a "dan" in bugs.c.o and a
"dan" on the website, it is not clear if that is the same user. If we
have a "dan@example.com" in both dbs, but one has the username "dan",
the other "smithd", we can be sure it is the same user.

That is just for the merge. How we address the database later is a
completely different issue.

But as said, we are open for ideas

Ralph
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Old 02-18-2011, 07:18 PM
Ralph Angenendt
 
Default Website Version 2, next steps

Am 18.02.11 09:20, schrieb Ljubomir Ljubojevic:
> James Hogarth wrote:
>> I wouldn't use the email due to DB query time plus it makes updating the
>> email address trickier when it changes.
>>
>
> +1 for normal autoincrement primary key.

Guys, that is just for finding same accounts which might have different
user names.

Why does everything have to be *technical* at once when we're first
trying to sort how *how* to find same users across the databases?

With LDAP there is no "autoincrement primary key" by the way, if we want
to go technical

Ralph
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