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Old 01-09-2011, 05:15 PM
Magnus Therning
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On 09/01/11 18:09, Kaiting Chen wrote:
> On Jan 9, 2011, at 12:50, Magnus Therning <magnus@therning.org> wrote:
>> Is there no "package popularity contest" that could offer information about
>> actual usage?
>
> This is always an interesting topic to discuss. There is pkgstats which
> unfortunately is not ideal statistically in that it does not pull data from
> a characteristic sample. To figure out actual usage data is probably
> impossible. The metrics from MirrorBrain might be the closest one can
> actually get to that. Unfortunately that is not what we use to manage our
> mirrors. --Kaiting.

I assume it's been up for discussion earlier then, right? ;-)

I have vague memories of Debian's popcon package, and sort of assumed
someone
would have something similar for Arch.

/M

--
Magnus Therning OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
email: magnus@therning.org jabber: magnus@therning.org
twitter: magthe http://therning.org/magnus
 
Old 01-09-2011, 05:21 PM
Thomas S Hatch
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

Yes magnus, arch has pkgstats which is similar to popcon, but the
instalation is completely volountary.

it is a good resource, but something more granular would be nice.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 05:41 PM
Magnus Therning
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On 09/01/11 18:21, Thomas S Hatch wrote:
> Yes magnus, arch has pkgstats which is similar to popcon, but the
> instalation is completely volountary.

Doing anything but a voluntary thing would be VERY difficult for many
reasons
I think ;-)

> it is a good resource, but something more granular would be nice.

What do you mean by "more granular"?

/M

--
Magnus Therning OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
email: magnus@therning.org jabber: magnus@therning.org
twitter: magthe http://therning.org/magnus
 
Old 01-09-2011, 08:18 PM
Thomas S Hatch
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Magnus Therning <magnus@therning.org>wrote:

> On 09/01/11 18:21, Thomas S Hatch wrote:
> > Yes magnus, arch has pkgstats which is similar to popcon, but the
> > instalation is completely volountary.
>
> Doing anything but a voluntary thing would be VERY difficult for many
> reasons
> I think ;-)
>
> > it is a good resource, but something more granular would be nice.
>
> What do you mean by "more granular"?
>
> /M
>
> --
> Magnus Therning OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
> email: magnus@therning.org jabber: magnus@therning.org
> twitter: magthe http://therning.org/magnus
>
>

Right, it needs to be voluntary, of course , but the problem is that the
results of the pkgstats, while useful, are still singled out to a subset of
users. This of course breaks the reliability of the statistical analysis. So
pkgstats is a good indicator of package use, such that if a package shows up
a lot on pkgstats then we have a viable indication of popularity.

But the opposite cannot be reliably assessed, this is because the subset of
users using pkgstats does not reflect a random sampling of users, therefore,
statistically it is very feasible for there to be large unrepresented swaths
of users.


By "granular" I mean "more accurate", the problem here is of course is the
question of how this is done.

The Fedora project uses a system called smolt to track Fedora installations,
it runs during the firstboot process and returns a monthly report to Fedora
about hardware and installation information.

Fedora feels somewhat confident that smolt returns fairly accurate
information, mostly because it is turned on by default.
But even then, it can only reflect a subset, since it is still opt in and
client side.

The next argument would be to incorporate a server side solution, that just
traces how many times individual files are downloaded. The problem here is
that it requires that we ask the mirrors to all run mirror side traces, and
I highly doubt they would all go for it.

I imagine there are other solutions to the problem, but the reality is that
open source is by its nature viral, and tracking this stuff is murder. So
removing something from community and placing it in the AUR is difficult,
primarily because we cannot be sure that it is not being used. Unfortunately
this method "ask around" has a number of holes too.

I know that there are criteria for bringing a package into community, I
wonder if a set of criteria or lightweight process for package removal from
community would be a good idea.

The way distributions like debian and Fedora handle this problem is by just
packaging everything - and we don't quite have the man power and interest
(all be it Arch is getting close, we have a lot of Devs and TUs now). But
also there is a question, a strong question, about whether or not that would
be an Arch philosophy solution at all. The AUR and the easy path to package
inclusion is one of the things that make Arch great.
 
Old 01-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Kaiting Chen
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Thomas S Hatch <thatch45@gmail.com> wrote:

> The next argument would be to incorporate a server side solution, that just
> traces how many times individual files are downloaded. The problem here is
> that it requires that we ask the mirrors to all run mirror side traces, and
> I highly doubt they would all go for it.
>

Use a single central server that proxies all requests to individual mirrors.
Then you track at the site of the central server. --Kaiting.

--
Kiwis and Limes: http://kaitocracy.blogspot.com/
 
Old 01-09-2011, 09:33 PM
Thomas S Hatch
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 2:51 PM, Kaiting Chen <kaitocracy@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:18 PM, Thomas S Hatch <thatch45@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > The next argument would be to incorporate a server side solution, that
> just
> > traces how many times individual files are downloaded. The problem here
> is
> > that it requires that we ask the mirrors to all run mirror side traces,
> and
> > I highly doubt they would all go for it.
> >
>
> Use a single central server that proxies all requests to individual
> mirrors.
> Then you track at the site of the central server. --Kaiting.
>
> --
> Kiwis and Limes: http://kaitocracy.blogspot.com/
>


Ahh! That would work for tracking, I should have thought of that. but then
the user can still directly attach to mirrors and the results are skewed
again, and you know that they would, since the proxy is not always going to
make the best choice for them, at least it sure doesn't work on Fedora!

But when all is said and done I don't think that adding layers to the repo
would be a good move, it creates an over complication to the pacman process,
and for tracking. This is clearly a Heisenberg issue, adding complexity to
track something has changed the basic nature of that which is being tracked.

Mainly my comments were more along the line of exploring the issue, in the
end I think that just writing up some guidelines for moving packages out
of the binary repos would be a good idea, adding engineering to the problem
on the level I have described would be non KISS IMHO.

-Tom
 
Old 01-10-2011, 09:01 AM
Cédric Girard
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Mike Sampson <mike@sambodata.com> wrote:

>
>
> Task Warrior - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=22085
>
> Mike
>

Does anyone know why this package does not use upstream name ? There is no
way to tell this "task" package is Task Warrior except looking to the URI.

Regards,
--
Cédric Girard
 
Old 01-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Magnus Therning
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

2011/1/10 Cédric Girard <girard.cedric@gmail.com>:
> On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Mike Sampson <mike@sambodata.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Task Warrior - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=22085
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
> Does anyone know why this package does not use upstream name ? There is no
> way to tell this "task" package is Task Warrior except looking to the URI.

There's some confusion on the upstream page, taskwarrior.org. Text like

"Taskwarrior is an ambitious project to supercharge task with an
interactive interface, GTD features, color themes, data synch,
dependencies, custom reports, charts, and Lua plugins, all while our
international team provides excellent support!"

make it sound like 'taskwarrior' is a layer on top of something called
'task'. But then the download file is
http://www.taskwarrior.org/download/task-1.9.3.tar.gz The package is
called 'task' by upstream in all distro files they provide too.

No matter how confusing this is, I would say that 'task' is the
correct package name for the program taskwarrior :-)

/M

--
Magnus Therning * * * * * * * * * * *OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
email: magnus@therning.org * jabber: magnus@therning.org
twitter: magthe * * * * * * * http://therning.org/magnus
 
Old 01-10-2011, 09:35 AM
Cédric Girard
 
Default Does anyone use tdl?

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Magnus Therning <magnus@therning.org>wrote:

> 2011/1/10 Cédric Girard <girard.cedric@gmail.com>:
> > On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:23 AM, Mike Sampson <mike@sambodata.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Task Warrior - https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=22085
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >
> > Does anyone know why this package does not use upstream name ? There is
> no
> > way to tell this "task" package is Task Warrior except looking to the
> URI.
>
> There's some confusion on the upstream page, taskwarrior.org. Text like
>
> "Taskwarrior is an ambitious project to supercharge task with an
> interactive interface, GTD features, color themes, data synch,
> dependencies, custom reports, charts, and Lua plugins, all while our
> international team provides excellent support!"
>
> make it sound like 'taskwarrior' is a layer on top of something called
> 'task'. But then the download file is
> http://www.taskwarrior.org/download/task-1.9.3.tar.gz The package is
> called 'task' by upstream in all distro files they provide too.
>
> No matter how confusing this is, I would say that 'task' is the
> correct package name for the program taskwarrior :-)
>
> /M
>
> --
> Magnus Therning OpenPGP: 0xAB4DFBA4
> email: magnus@therning.org jabber: magnus@therning.org
> twitter: magthe http://therning.org/magnus
>

My bad. I did not try to install it before writing my previous mail. I
understand know. I agree with you on the confusion of this.

Anyway. Looks like a great tool, not so complicated to use.

--
Cédric Girard
 

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