Mailing list closed for 24 hours
 

I am invoking the easy way to end flamewars...

This mailing list will be shut down for the next 24 hours. Any messages
sent to the list will go to /dev/null.

Once the list is reinstated, I will automatically ban any person who
sends an email that is not asking for help or providing help.

Allan

Mailing list closed for 24 hours
 

On 26/09/12 21:35, Allan McRae wrote:
> I am invoking the easy way to end flamewars...
>
> This mailing list will be shut down for the next 24 hours. Any messages
> sent to the list will go to /dev/null.
>
> Once the list is reinstated, I will automatically ban any person who
> sends an email that is not asking for help or providing help.
>

And we are back...

Remember sticking to help requests and answering these will ensure this
list remains open for everyone.

Allan

Mailing list closed for 24 hours
 

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On 09/27/2012 12:43 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
> And we are back...

Sir, you've got some yarbles.
IMHO the cause of all these flaming is that arch-general is too, well, general.
What about if we would split this list up into a list for technical questions
(e.g. arch-support) and a more philosophical, rambling one (e.g.
arch-discussion), so that everyone could choose his/her own poison?

P.S.: This is definitely a help request to make the make the arch mailing lists
a happy place again ;-)
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Tobias Frilling
<tobias@frilling-online.de> wrote:
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>
> On 09/27/2012 12:43 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
>> And we are back...
>
> Sir, you've got some yarbles.
> IMHO the cause of all these flaming is that arch-general is too, well, general.
> What about if we would split this list up into a list for technical questions
> (e.g. arch-support) and a more philosophical, rambling one (e.g.
> arch-discussion), so that everyone could choose his/her own poison?

There already is a place for such discussion: http://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux

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Full ack, although I have the feeling that critical discussion is
something what (at least some) devs/admins want to avoid within the
community.
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The 27/09/12, Tobias Frilling wrote:

> IMHO the cause of all these flaming is that arch-general is too, well, general.

The problem is not that arch-general is the wrong place for the latter
threads. Users are correct to think such discussion should happen here.

The problem is that maintainers, developers and advanced users want
quality and constructive discussions. But this kind of contribution
should happen on the archlinux-dev mailing list which is currently not
possible because it's _closed_. The problem is that the dev list should
be *open* to subscriptions. Trolling naturally does not happen in such
list ― or die very fast ― because of the direct relationship of the
discussions with the code and the maintenance jobs.

Instead of fragmenting more the mailing lists with the hope of putting
poor contributions out of place for advanced users, let enter the
technical oriented users into the dev mailing list. Also, this would not
let maintainers break from the constructive users with massive
unsubscriptions from here.

BTW, I find it's a shame that advanced users with technical and valid
messages have to *fork* a thread from the dev list to the general list
(or post a new request to the general list) with the *hope* that a
maintainer/developer catch the reply in the other public mailing list.
And no, I don't find requesting in private is a solution, either.

The problem is not at the general mailing list but at the dev mailing
list side.


--
Nicolas Sebrecht

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On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> The 27/09/12, Tobias Frilling wrote:
>
> The problem is not at the general mailing list but at the dev mailing
> list side.

archlinux-dev is for contributors and as long somebody is just a user
he should have read-only access. Unless we have a way (and a will) of
banning people from that list, there is nothing we can do to prevent
flames there, if we open it up.

The discussion on archlinux-dev is often based on RFCs made by some
dev and you can comment on it on arch-general just fine.

Can you give some examples of discussions you would see moving to archlinux-dev?

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On 09/27/2012 04:35 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> Instead of fragmenting more the mailing lists with the hope of putting
> poor contributions out of place for advanced users, let enter the
> technical oriented users into the dev mailing list.
I don't think that opening arch-dev-public for everybody would solve our
problems, it would just relocate the noise into this list. The devs and TUs
really need a quiet list of their own with a good signal/noise ratio. (There is
no arch-dev-secret, is there?)
So what if there was a arch-technical list instead of a arch-support, where all
the help request could land and also *purely* technical contributions from
advanced users? dev-public could stay as-is with reports and other official
stuff, technical would be the list for support and contribution and discussion
for rambling and flaming :-)
The thing is, some users really want this kind of heated debate, and the only
alternative we currently have is banning, which some consider censorship, or
shutting the list down for a day (still, awesome!). With the new split there
would be the alternative "guys, stay on topic or take is to -discussion".
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On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> The 27/09/12, Tobias Frilling wrote:
>
>> IMHO the cause of all these flaming is that arch-general is too, well, general.
>
> The problem is not that arch-general is the wrong place for the latter
> threads. Users are correct to think such discussion should happen here.
>
> The problem is that maintainers, developers and advanced users want
> quality and constructive discussions. But this kind of contribution
> should happen on the archlinux-dev mailing list which is currently not
> possible because it's _closed_. The problem is that the dev list should
> be *open* to subscriptions. Trolling naturally does not happen in such
> list -- or die very fast -- because of the direct relationship of the
> discussions with the code and the maintenance jobs.
>
> Instead of fragmenting more the mailing lists with the hope of putting
> poor contributions out of place for advanced users, let enter the
> technical oriented users into the dev mailing list. Also, this would not
> let maintainers break from the constructive users with massive
> unsubscriptions from here.
>
> BTW, I find it's a shame that advanced users with technical and valid
> messages have to *fork* a thread from the dev list to the general list
> (or post a new request to the general list) with the *hope* that a
> maintainer/developer catch the reply in the other public mailing list.
> And no, I don't find requesting in private is a solution, either.
>
> The problem is not at the general mailing list but at the dev mailing
> list side.
>

For those users who use the arch forums via a web interface there
seems to be more helpful comments and less trolling than in the
general list - just an observation - maybe that is because the forums
are split into a number of topic specific separate forums - eg
installation, kernel, server/networking newbie etc.

--
mike c

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On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:28 PM, mike cloaked <mike.cloaked@gmail.com> wrote:
> For those users who use the arch forums via a web interface there
> seems to be more helpful comments and less trolling than in the
> general list - just an observation - maybe that is because the forums
> are split into a number of topic specific separate forums - eg
> installation, kernel, server/networking newbie etc.
>
> --
> mike c

As it was mentioned a couple times on the list, the forums have
moderators. If you don't behave, you get banned, threads get closed
etc.