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Old 09-28-2012, 09:13 AM
Allan McRae
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On 28/09/12 19:01, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> The 27/09/12, Karol Blazewicz wrote:
>
>> Can you give some examples of discussions you would see moving to archlinux-dev?
>
> Sure.
>
> Subject: [arch-general] Modifying archiso
> From: Robbie Smith <z...@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:47:11 +1000
> To: arch-general@archlinux.org
> Message-ID: <5058431F.5090707@gmail.com>
>
> Subject: [arch-general] Open Build Service adds support for Arch Linux
> From: André Prata <b...@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:48:36 +0100
> To: arch-general@archlinux.org
>
> Subject: [arch-general] swt - why depends bump to java-runtime>=7?
> From: "David C. Rankin" <d...@suddenlinkmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:06:46 -0500
> To: Archlinux <arch-general@archlinux.org>
> Message-ID: <504E5666.3000902@suddenlinkmail.com>
>
> Subject: [arch-general] archiso - more install guides
> From: vadim kochan <v...@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:33:39 +0300
> To: arch-general@archlinux.org
>
> Subject: [arch-general] Requesting ownership of the bugs for AIF in the bugtracker
> From: Jeremiah Dodds <j....dodds@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 05:21:24 -0400
> To: Arch General List <arch-general@archlinux.org>
> Message-ID: <87ehmjxy0b.fsf@friendface.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me>
>
> Subject: [arch-dev-public] Re: [RFC] another base cleanup
> From: Nicolas Sebrecht <n...@piing.fr>
> Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:27:58 +0200
> To: Public mailing list for Arch Linux development <arch-dev-public@archlinux.org>
> Message-ID: <20120607072758.GB2427@nicolas-desktop>
>
> These are only samples. I can't take the samples of topic not even
> written

If all that crap went to arch-dev-public, I would have to unsubscribe
there too.

Allan
 
Old 09-28-2012, 09:38 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

The 28/09/12, Allan McRae wrote:

> If all that crap went to arch-dev-public, I would have to unsubscribe
> there too.

What you're calling crap are all technical content that could gain with
direct emulation with official maintainers.

BTW, what a wonderfull attitude from you to non official people. Highly
contructive and motivating. Thanks.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 09-28-2012, 09:41 AM
Allan McRae
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On 28/09/12 19:38, Nicolas Sebrecht wrote:
> BTW, what a wonderfull attitude from you to non official people. Highly
> contructive and motivating. Thanks.

Thanks.
 
Old 09-28-2012, 09:43 AM
Gaetan Bisson
 
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[2012-09-28 11:38:13 +0200] Nicolas Sebrecht:
> What you're calling crap are all technical content that could gain with
> direct emulation with official maintainers.

We have recently seen on this very mailing list that for every person
posting considerate opinions, there are dozens who just pollute threads
with fear, uncertainty, doubt, and just sheer incompetence.

We simply cannot allow that to spread to arch-dev-public, even if we all
agree it is too bad that some people with considerate opinions are not
allowed to post there just because they aren't devs.

--
Gaetan
 
Old 09-28-2012, 10:01 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

The 28/09/12, Gaetan Bisson wrote:

> We have recently seen on this very mailing list that for every person
> posting considerate opinions, there are dozens who just pollute threads
> with fear, uncertainty, doubt, and just sheer incompetence.

I'm very confident that an open dev mailing list with topic-oriented
policy would just work. I'm so confident because this is how the Gentoo
dev mailing list works and it works well.

To draw a caricature, trolling does not happen because devs ask others
to talk with code.

And I can't believe the Arch Linux community has more flamers than
Gentoo's community. I tend to think it's quiet the opposite as the
Gentoo community is wider.

> We simply cannot allow that to spread to arch-dev-public, even if we all
> agree it is too bad that some people with considerate opinions are not
> allowed to post there just because they aren't devs.

Things can change! ,-)

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 09-28-2012, 10:33 AM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Sep 28, 2012 12:01 PM, "Nicolas Sebrecht" <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
>
> The 28/09/12, Gaetan Bisson wrote:
>
> > We have recently seen on this very mailing list that for every person
> > posting considerate opinions, there are dozens who just pollute threads
> > with fear, uncertainty, doubt, and just sheer incompetence.
>
> I'm very confident that an open dev mailing list with topic-oriented
> policy would just work. I'm so confident because this is how the Gentoo
> dev mailing list works and it works well.

An option could be to enable moderation on dev-public, still defaulting to
rejecting everything, but allow through high-quality contributions from the
outside.

I agree that we should create a venue for would-be contributors to engage
with us, but i also agree that we don't want to end up with non
constructive content in dev-public, and we don't want to waste time on
justifying rejecting/banning things (it should stay high-quality and low
volume as we expect all devs and all users of testing to read it
thoroughly).

I don't know the best solution, just throwing out an idea.

Tom
 
Old 09-28-2012, 11:43 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

The 28/09/12, Tom Gundersen wrote:

> An option could be to enable moderation on dev-public, still defaulting to
> rejecting everything, but allow through high-quality contributions from the
> outside.
>
> I agree that we should create a venue for would-be contributors to engage
> with us, but i also agree that we don't want to end up with non
> constructive content in dev-public, and we don't want to waste time on
> justifying rejecting/banning things (it should stay high-quality and low
> volume as we expect all devs and all users of testing to read it
> thoroughly).
>
> I don't know the best solution, just throwing out an idea.

I agree with you this would be a welcome alternative.

Allowing outside moderated contributions can really reduce the gap
between users and devs for maintenance and code oriented discussions
while still protecting from poor content (which is a fair understandable
fear).

Also, it would help in the longer run to appreciate how things can go
with a more open policy and let everybody evaluate the possibility of a
full opened mailing list based on accepted/rejected mails ratio.

I'd like to add that trying to change a mailing list policy is a easy
reversible change in case things don't go to the expected way.

So, this is a +1 from me.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 09-28-2012, 03:27 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no> wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2012 12:01 PM, "Nicolas Sebrecht" <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
>>
>> The 28/09/12, Gaetan Bisson wrote:
>>
>> > We have recently seen on this very mailing list that for every person
>> > posting considerate opinions, there are dozens who just pollute threads
>> > with fear, uncertainty, doubt, and just sheer incompetence.
>>
>> I'm very confident that an open dev mailing list with topic-oriented
>> policy would just work. I'm so confident because this is how the Gentoo
>> dev mailing list works and it works well.
>
> An option could be to enable moderation on dev-public, still defaulting to
> rejecting everything, but allow through high-quality contributions from the
> outside.
>
> I agree that we should create a venue for would-be contributors to engage
> with us, but i also agree that we don't want to end up with non
> constructive content in dev-public, and we don't want to waste time on
> justifying rejecting/banning things (it should stay high-quality and low
> volume as we expect all devs and all users of testing to read it
> thoroughly).
>
> I don't know the best solution, just throwing out an idea.
>
> Tom

It "might" work - but some lucky person would have to go through the
rejected stuff and filter out the worthwhile posts to allow through -
if I was a dev/moderator I might not want to undertake that task! At
least at the moment the read only dev list is not polluted with "c**p"
as Allan might say!

I am sure there must be a significant number of people who are simply
not interested in seeing the "flame wars"/"troll posts" at all - so
not having them in the list to start with for me at least is the
better option - i.e. the status quo. On the other hand is it possible
to "apply" for write permission to the dev list for non-devs? Though
I would not like to be the person making those decisions either!

If anyone has been subscribed to the Fedora General list in the past
year or so, then you will have seen equally long running and equally
non-productive troll threads there - (one reason I unsubscribed from
that list some time ago).

I do like clean clear concise and logical technical discussion which I
expect is the view of many others too!

--
mike c
 
Old 09-28-2012, 04:27 PM
Leonidas Spyropoulos
 
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On 28 Sep 2012 11:34, "Tom Gundersen" <teg@jklm.no> wrote:
>
> An option could be to enable moderation on dev-public, still defaulting to
> rejecting everything, but allow through high-quality contributions from
the
> outside.
>
I concur this idea, but who's is going to moderate it? You should consider
that also if someone from the devs moderate it (more work for them).

> I agree that we should create a venue for would-be contributors to engage
> with us, but i also agree that we don't want to end up with non
> constructive content in dev-public, and we don't want to waste time on
> justifying rejecting/banning things (it should stay high-quality and low
> volume as we expect all devs and all users of testing to read it
> thoroughly).
>
+1 for a "bridge" to the dev-land.

> I don't know the best solution, just throwing out an idea.
>
> Tom
 
Old 09-28-2012, 06:16 PM
Gaetan Bisson
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

[2012-09-28 12:01:01 +0200] Nicolas Sebrecht:
> The 28/09/12, Gaetan Bisson wrote:
>
> > We have recently seen on this very mailing list that for every person
> > posting considerate opinions, there are dozens who just pollute threads
> > with fear, uncertainty, doubt, and just sheer incompetence.
>
> I'm very confident that an open dev mailing list with topic-oriented
> policy would just work. I'm so confident because this is how the Gentoo
> dev mailing list works and it works well.

So, essentially, you have no arguments except that "it should just work
like it does for Gentoo"; yet you've posted in this thread five times
only to repeat the above. But, of course, if our topic of discussion
were to be technical, your stubbornness (and the resulting noise) would
magically go away, right?

--
Gaetan
 

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