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Old 09-27-2012, 04:40 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 5:37 PM, Karol Blazewicz
<karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> As it was mentioned a couple times on the list, the forums have
> moderators. If you don't behave, you get banned, threads get closed
> etc.

OK - it seems to work - when I get frustrated with the mailling list I
go to the forums instead. However it is also easy to just delete the
long dreary threads with zero useful information simply by a click of
a button!

--
mike c
 
Old 09-27-2012, 05:47 PM
Joakim Hernberg
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:28:02 +0100
mike cloaked <mike.cloaked@gmail.com> wrote:

> For those users who use the arch forums via a web interface there

Is there an alternative way to access the forums? mailing list, usenet?

--

Joakim
 
Old 09-27-2012, 06:34 PM
Tobias Frilling
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 09/27/2012 09:44 PM, yvind Heggstad wrote:
> I can only see two things that can really help slow down/stop/revert the
> spiral:
>
> 1) Moderation. Get rid of the serial trollers/flamers
> 2) Get more devs and "good" people to join and be active.

For your last point: Thats putting the horse behind the cart. Most devs and/or
skilled users leave -general just because it has become such a dump.

Concerning moderation: See my last mail. Some users will always going head first
into heated discussions. The -discussion mailing list could serve as an outlet
for this need, rendering the other list more productive via being moderated; The
rule wouldn't be "shut up or be banned", which shouldn't really be necessary
for rational folks like us, but "shut up or take this to -discussion" with
banning as ultima ratio.
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Old 09-27-2012, 06:37 PM
Karol Blazewicz
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 7:47 PM, Joakim Hernberg <jbh@alchemy.lu> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 17:28:02 +0100
> mike cloaked <mike.cloaked@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> For those users who use the arch forums via a web interface there
>
> Is there an alternative way to access the forums? mailing list, usenet?

You can subscribe to threads and subforums and receive updates to your
e-mail. There are rss feeds too.
Mike probably wanted to say you don't have to pay attention to e.g.
the 'Newbie corner' threads if you don't want to, where there are
relatively few Arch mailing lists.

As others have said:
- arch-general was enough when Arch was smaller and more niche, it's
one of the Major Distributions now :-) Maybe we need more MLs, maybe
we need more bans.
- There should be a way to 'mute' the thread via some option / filter
in your e-mail app to keep what you consider noise down.
 
Old 09-27-2012, 07:44 PM
yvind Heggstad
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 14:19:31 +0200
Tobias Frilling <tobias@frilling-online.de> wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 09/27/2012 12:43 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
> > And we are back...
>
> Sir, you've got some yarbles.
> IMHO the cause of all these flaming is that arch-general is too,
> well, general. What about if we would split this list up into a list
> for technical questions (e.g. arch-support) and a more philosophical,
> rambling one (e.g. arch-discussion), so that everyone could choose
> his/her own poison?
>
> P.S.: This is definitely a help request to make the make the arch
> mailing lists a happy place again ;-)
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Imo it's not a problem that arch-general has a wide topic. You have to
remember that it actually worked well for years, it's really only in the
last 6-12 months or so that arch-general have really started to go
downhill.

Here is how it goes (in my eyes)

1) community is small, S/N ratio is awesome, discussions are generally
"friendly"

2) community starts growing fast, and brings with it a lower S/N ratio

3) more flame-wars etc starts to happen, causing some of the "good"
people to leave. S/N ratio gets even worse.

4) almost none of the devs nor old-timers and the more
friendly/knowledgeable
people are left. S/N goes to hell, bad press happens because of it,
just increasing the downward spiral.


I can only see two things that can really help slow down/stop/revert the
spiral:

1) Moderation. Get rid of the serial trollers/flamers
2) Get more devs and "good" people to join and be active.

Where the second point probably is the most important.
 
Old 09-27-2012, 08:32 PM
Martn Cigorraga
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

While I would like to support @Tobias idea of splitting the list I also
agree with all the following emails.
Btw, so much time using Arch and I've never heard about
http://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux, thanks for that.

I only want to add an observation to what was already said:
Tipically all this flame seems to arise at the gates of new'n profound
changes and as such it's perfectly understandable that these kind of things
happens.
We Arch Linux users are a kind of users who:
1. loves to know. While we are glad to solve a specific issue that's
graying our hair, we will *not* be satisfied until we understand what the
hell was happening and all the inner workings of that - that's a fact.
2. we don't like to let anybody hold our hand (well, I would let Eva Mendes
hold mine... ) and as such we tend to be a bit grumpy about those users who
come for help without actually _thinking_ about what can be the problem or
at least without searching the forums, the wiki and the intertubes. On the
other hand we are totally open to those folks that come with a problem
explaining what's happenig, what they did and the results (in part because
we enjoy solving these puzzles).
3. we are mostly self taught, autodidacts. As such we each develop an
almost _unique_ way to interact with our systems and as such are our
viewpoints about general GNU/Linux and F/LOSS and everything's else in
life: yeah, we are free thinkers.
4. as a result of above we usually tailor our systems to our own personal
taste and way to use it.
5. as a result of above we usually have a *strong* opinion about things,
specially that things that may/will change the way we use our system - and
here is when flames arise.
6. in the end we all love Arch with it's drawbacks -thankfully not many-
and all it awesomeness, and deeply we know that while there are some
aspects that aren't exactly the way we expect or at least how we would like
them to be, the reality is that when we see how other distros works, when
we have to deal with other distros because work, support to friends, our
LUGs or anything else, we don't like them: while there may be some puntual
things that may appeal to us the overall system _don't_! So Arch Linux's
the way, what else? (At least this is how I feel regarding the rest of
GNU/Linux distros since I first meet Arch a few years ago.)

As a result of above I forsee more flaming in the future whenever a
critical update or shift (like systemd is) come, that's shitty but's a
natural reaction and thus we need to remain patient to passionate arguments
and stubborn people - which in no way means to sacrifice our opinions.
Regarding the flow of new users it's likely they *must* learn our house
rules rather to we accomodate to them. I consider the forums, the wiki,
this list and Arch Linux in general as my house in what F/LOSS regards and
I don't like to see it vandalized - and wont allow that.
A bit of trolling is funny as well too much politeness is insufferable and
I can accomodate a low-hit if a say or ask for something stupid -and I will
be the first to make laugh of myself for that- but newcomers should to be
_clearly_ aware that we don't like nor support bad attitude and that we can
hold their hands only to help them start: in this regard I can say Arch
Linux is one of the most both friendly and connoisseur communities abroad
GNU/Linux-land and I'm most grateful for it for help me start using this
great distro when I first switched from *buntu-land.

I'm but sure that now the systemd adoption is a fact we will have peaceful
times ahead with the usual chit-chat and the new technologie seek-for-aid
mails so I vote to give us -this list- some time before commit any change
like splitting or anything else.
Also I would like to encourage any dev, TU or skillful users that might
have unsubscribed in the recent time to subscribe again an help push
arch-general to it's greatest potential.

Greetings!
 
Old 09-27-2012, 09:15 PM
Fons Adriaensen
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 05:32:08PM -0300, Martn Cigorraga wrote:

> We Arch Linux users are a kind of users who:
> [1 ... 6]

A as user I can subscribe to this 100%, also to your conclusions.


--
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
 
Old 09-28-2012, 06:45 AM
nailz
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

Very eloquently put brethren "+1"
On Sep 27, 2012 9:33 PM, "Martn Cigorraga" <msx@archlinux.us> wrote:

> While I would like to support @Tobias idea of splitting the list I also
> agree with all the following emails.
> Btw, so much time using Arch and I've never heard about
> http://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux, thanks for that.
>
> I only want to add an observation to what was already said:
> Tipically all this flame seems to arise at the gates of new'n profound
> changes and as such it's perfectly understandable that these kind of things
> happens.
> We Arch Linux users are a kind of users who:
> 1. loves to know. While we are glad to solve a specific issue that's
> graying our hair, we will *not* be satisfied until we understand what the
> hell was happening and all the inner workings of that - that's a fact.
> 2. we don't like to let anybody hold our hand (well, I would let Eva Mendes
> hold mine... ) and as such we tend to be a bit grumpy about those users who
> come for help without actually _thinking_ about what can be the problem or
> at least without searching the forums, the wiki and the intertubes. On the
> other hand we are totally open to those folks that come with a problem
> explaining what's happenig, what they did and the results (in part because
> we enjoy solving these puzzles).
> 3. we are mostly self taught, autodidacts. As such we each develop an
> almost _unique_ way to interact with our systems and as such are our
> viewpoints about general GNU/Linux and F/LOSS and everything's else in
> life: yeah, we are free thinkers.
> 4. as a result of above we usually tailor our systems to our own personal
> taste and way to use it.
> 5. as a result of above we usually have a *strong* opinion about things,
> specially that things that may/will change the way we use our system - and
> here is when flames arise.
> 6. in the end we all love Arch with it's drawbacks -thankfully not many-
> and all it awesomeness, and deeply we know that while there are some
> aspects that aren't exactly the way we expect or at least how we would like
> them to be, the reality is that when we see how other distros works, when
> we have to deal with other distros because work, support to friends, our
> LUGs or anything else, we don't like them: while there may be some puntual
> things that may appeal to us the overall system _don't_! So Arch Linux's
> the way, what else? (At least this is how I feel regarding the rest of
> GNU/Linux distros since I first meet Arch a few years ago.)
>
> As a result of above I forsee more flaming in the future whenever a
> critical update or shift (like systemd is) come, that's shitty but's a
> natural reaction and thus we need to remain patient to passionate arguments
> and stubborn people - which in no way means to sacrifice our opinions.
> Regarding the flow of new users it's likely they *must* learn our house
> rules rather to we accomodate to them. I consider the forums, the wiki,
> this list and Arch Linux in general as my house in what F/LOSS regards and
> I don't like to see it vandalized - and wont allow that.
> A bit of trolling is funny as well too much politeness is insufferable and
> I can accomodate a low-hit if a say or ask for something stupid -and I will
> be the first to make laugh of myself for that- but newcomers should to be
> _clearly_ aware that we don't like nor support bad attitude and that we can
> hold their hands only to help them start: in this regard I can say Arch
> Linux is one of the most both friendly and connoisseur communities abroad
> GNU/Linux-land and I'm most grateful for it for help me start using this
> great distro when I first switched from *buntu-land.
>
> I'm but sure that now the systemd adoption is a fact we will have peaceful
> times ahead with the usual chit-chat and the new technologie seek-for-aid
> mails so I vote to give us -this list- some time before commit any change
> like splitting or anything else.
> Also I would like to encourage any dev, TU or skillful users that might
> have unsubscribed in the recent time to subscribe again an help push
> arch-general to it's greatest potential.
>
> Greetings!
>
 
Old 09-28-2012, 06:57 AM
David Benfell
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

On 09/27/2012 11:34 AM, Tobias Frilling wrote:
The -discussion mailing list could serve as an outlet for this need,
rendering the other list more productive via being moderated; The rule
wouldn't be "shut up or be banned", which shouldn't really be
necessary for rational folks like us, but "shut up or take this to
-discussion" with banning as ultima ratio.
Forgive me as I'm writing from very dim memory of mailman; does mailman
not offer the ability to suppress threads? And assuming it does, how
well does it work?
 
Old 09-28-2012, 09:01 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default Mailing list closed for 24 hours

The 27/09/12, Karol Blazewicz wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> > The 27/09/12, Tobias Frilling wrote:
> >
> > The problem is not at the general mailing list but at the dev mailing
> > list side.
>
> archlinux-dev is for contributors and as long somebody is just a user
> he should have read-only access.

You pretend that giving access because of the status is better. I claim
it's wrong and it's more benefic for everybody to split mailing lists
in terms of expected _topics_.

> Unless we have a way (and a will) of
> banning people from that list, there is nothing we can do to prevent
> flames there, if we open it up.

I understand you might be afraid. This just won't happen because members
of the dev mailing list are talking about code and maintenance jobs in
concrete terms.

Look at the Gentoo dev mailing list. It's fully open. The community is
_way_ wider than Arch's one and things are going right.

There won't be flames unless you clearly concede that some topics are
_exposed_ to flames. If so, this is because topics discussed in the dev
mailing list are not as technical as they are supposed to and some of
the ones who make the decisions don't always rely on technical facts.

> The discussion on archlinux-dev is often based on RFCs made by some
> dev and you can comment on it on arch-general just fine.

So, you admit that constructive topics are going to be splitted between
mailing lists only because of the policy relying on status. Then you
should also admit:

* each time a thread is broken over mailing lists, the "out-going"
threads lose touch with contributors not subscribed to the users
mailing list;

* not official Arch members have more pain to reach official
contributors directly in a public way (members of the dev mailing list
are not supposed to be subscribed to the users mailing list and
mailing lists are not nested);

* interesting contributions are lost because the policy is a
discouraging frein to people who'd like to involve themselve a bit
more into the maintenance job;

* people are not much motivated to contribute from time to time because
of the status wall.


> Can you give some examples of discussions you would see moving to archlinux-dev?

Sure.

Subject: [arch-general] Modifying archiso
From: Robbie Smith <z...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2012 19:47:11 +1000
To: arch-general@archlinux.org
Message-ID: <5058431F.5090707@gmail.com>

Subject: [arch-general] Open Build Service adds support for Arch Linux
From: André Prata <b...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2012 11:48:36 +0100
To: arch-general@archlinux.org

Subject: [arch-general] swt - why depends bump to java-runtime>=7?
From: "David C. Rankin" <d...@suddenlinkmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2012 16:06:46 -0500
To: Archlinux <arch-general@archlinux.org>
Message-ID: <504E5666.3000902@suddenlinkmail.com>

Subject: [arch-general] archiso - more install guides
From: vadim kochan <v...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:33:39 +0300
To: arch-general@archlinux.org

Subject: [arch-general] Requesting ownership of the bugs for AIF in the bugtracker
From: Jeremiah Dodds <j....dodds@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2012 05:21:24 -0400
To: Arch General List <arch-general@archlinux.org>
Message-ID: <87ehmjxy0b.fsf@friendface.i-did-not-set--mail-host-address--so-tickle-me>

Subject: [arch-dev-public] Re: [RFC] another base cleanup
From: Nicolas Sebrecht <n...@piing.fr>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2012 09:27:58 +0200
To: Public mailing list for Arch Linux development <arch-dev-public@archlinux.org>
Message-ID: <20120607072758.GB2427@nicolas-desktop>

These are only samples. I can't take the samples of topic not even
written

Here is a good article:

http://blog.cyberborean.org/2006/03/03/open-source-best-practices-part-i-community

Take this excerpt

" Don’t let the people feel they do something personally for you – this
is ultimately not the case since you’ve published your code. Let them
feel this is their project as well as it is yours — and this is really
so. Don’t turn your authority as an initial developer and project
maintainer into dictation. Remember Tao: “If you want to lead other
people, you must put their interest ahead of your own”. "

and apply the argument for the mailing lists instead of the code only.

My point is that the dev mailing list should be the *main* discussion
forum of the community.

The users mailing list should not be turned into a

"This is the place where people without authority are welcome to
exchange with other non-authority people"

.

Oh, and for the arch-general mailing list we should even add

"Even if you can't talk directly with authoritative members and have
contructive discussions with them you MUST follow strict policy and
technical power users discussions. If not the authoritative members
might and WILL close your mailing list for some time for punishment"

.


--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 

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