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Old 09-23-2012, 09:30 PM
Tino Reichardt
 
Default testing/systemd 191-1 failed to boot

* Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am Sat, 22 Sep 2012 10:15:16 +0200
> schrieb fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com>:
>
> > Don't you read the *important* word : testing ! Are you blind ?
>
> I read that. And what goes into [testing]? Yes! Bingo! Software version
> which are released by upstream as *stable*. So yes, upstream was
> supposed to have this tested before it went into Arch's [testing].
>
> *rofl*

Yes...


> And how do [testing] users update their system when initscripts will be
> removed?
>
> How do you fix a borked Windoze systemd? Right, with a Windoze free
> LiveCD. How do you fix a borked systemd system? Right, with a systemd
> free LiveCD. *lol*
>
> > Are you stuck in 1690 or are we in the 2010's ?
>
> Even in the 2010's it can be better to stuck with 40 years old, well
> tested software instead of switching to new crap.
>
> You don't consider that I'm not against new software and new versions,
> but I'm against crap.

FULL ACK,

Thank you



Tino Reichardt
Using Arch since the Widget Release!
 
Old 09-23-2012, 10:04 PM
C Anthony Risinger
 
Default testing/systemd 191-1 failed to boot

On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 4:30 PM, Tino Reichardt <list-arch@mcmilk.de> wrote:
> * Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
>> Am Sat, 22 Sep 2012 10:15:16 +0200
>> schrieb fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com>:
>>
>> > Don't you read the *important* word : testing ! Are you blind ?
>>
>> I read that. And what goes into [testing]? Yes! Bingo! Software version
>> which are released by upstream as *stable*. So yes, upstream was
>> supposed to have this tested before it went into Arch's [testing].
>>
>> *rofl*
>
> Yes...
>
>> And how do [testing] users update their system when initscripts will be
>> removed?
>>
>> How do you fix a borked Windoze systemd? Right, with a Windoze free
>> LiveCD. How do you fix a borked systemd system? Right, with a systemd
>> free LiveCD. *lol*
>>
>> > Are you stuck in 1690 or are we in the 2010's ?
>>
>> Even in the 2010's it can be better to stuck with 40 years old, well
>> tested software instead of switching to new crap.
>>
>> You don't consider that I'm not against new software and new versions,
>> but I'm against crap.
>
> FULL ACK,
>
> Thank you

... it's just a Plain Ol' Bug ... nothing special or unique here. it
happens, then it gets fixed, and life does in fact go on ... thus
sayeth the Almighty Creature in the Sky!

really, even the most "stable" of software is inevitably flawed; a few
months ago i was prevented from doing damn near any useful work due to
an OpenSSL regression:

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1079535#p1079535
http://rt.openssl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=2771&user=guest&pass=guest

... but i think we all agree openssl is worth keeping around, yes?
such exceedingly high standards of "quality" and "stability" are
simply unrealistic.

systemd works pretty awesome for everything i've thrown at it, and
minus a few kinks here and there, flawless as well. of course, YMMV,
but i'd surmise 98% of those having difficulties are simply making
some small error ... systemd, IME, pretty much does what you'd expect.

btw, per Allan's link, the guy who made himself more useful than any
of us -- ie, by reporting (gasp!) the bug and including a patch --
concluded with this little gem:

"[...]

PS: I've been using systemd since v188 (w/o sysvinit) for
desktop/laptops (and even in ramroots) and love it. The unit file
syntax is nice and intuitive and things mostly work great
out-of-the-box. This, is after several years of using Upstart, which
worked adequately, but still was not as flexible as it should've been,
and a was bit fragile.."

... just some food-for-thought is all.

--

C Anthony
 
Old 09-24-2012, 09:55 AM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default testing/systemd 191-1 failed to boot

> ... but i think we all agree openssl is worth keeping around, yes?
> such exceedingly high standards of "quality" and "stability" are
> simply unrealistic.
>

That all depends on your time to implement new functionality
requirements.

> systemd works pretty awesome for everything i've thrown at it, and
> minus a few kinks here and there, flawless as well. of course, YMMV,
> but i'd surmise 98% of those having difficulties are simply making
> some small error ... systemd, IME, pretty much does what you'd expect.
>

As 90% of systemd (especially the useful parts) is already catered for
by other software such as all of the so called and incorrectly
documented security benefits, this time to functionality just causes
problems unnecessarily. Systemd has merits but as it is fundamentally
flawed without a good enough reason because of such a large pid1 and
dependence, there is no point in polishing it or me ever spending any
time using it.

> btw, per Allan's link, the guy who made himself more useful than any
> of us -- ie, by reporting (gasp!) the bug and including a patch --
> concluded with this little gem:
>
> "[...]
>
> PS: I've been using systemd since v188 (w/o sysvinit) for
> desktop/laptops (and even in ramroots) and love it. The unit file
> syntax is nice and intuitive and things mostly work great
> out-of-the-box. This, is after several years of using Upstart, which
> worked adequately, but still was not as flexible as it should've been,
> and a was bit fragile.."
>
> ... just some food-for-thought is all.

We will ignore the noob and migrater barriers as this seems to apply to
a lot of primarily linux software with more than a single binary (google
required). Consider mounting a logical volume without prior reference
by looking at the lvm page. The link between lvm and lvchange to enable
mounting simply isn't there. I guess I'm used to the practicality of
the excellent OpenBSD documentation, which is one of their goals
however.


--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 09-24-2012, 09:58 AM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default testing/systemd 191-1 failed to boot

> However, no one
> expected bugs never to happen in testing. It happens in all software,
> from the kernel up.

That's true however pid1 was designed to minimise this, systemd seems
the opposite with no regard to this. Most OS's install multiple kernels
to fall back on, I guess the same is now true for those who choose an
unnecessarily complex pid1, especially as the same author has promoted
no need for a statically built fallback root, due to busybox.

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 

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