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Old 08-31-2012, 04:58 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Aug 31, 2012 6:32 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 13:51 +0200, Damjan Georgievski wrote:
> > > > And this is yet another example how initscripts are broken.
> > > > I had a friend whose GDM was not coming up because it
> > > > was starting too fast after dbus. As a last resort we rearranged
> > > > the DAEMONS and moved gdm as the last daemon (after NM etc)
> > > > and it magically started to work.
>
> Isn't it more likely that dbus and GDM are broken and it should be
> started last anyway, there's no magic.

Sounds like a dbus bug. That said, with systemd's socket activation, this
bug (if it is a bug,i never heard of it before), and many like it, would no
longer be a problem.

> > You probably use the inittab method

[...]

> Will this be an issue for him if he switches to full systemd as it has
> removed inittab

Yes, inittab is ignored. It would be trivial to add support for it via a
generator, but I don't know of any reason to. We never really used inittab
in Arch.

systemd's unit files are essentially a generalisation of inittab, so
mimicking it is straight forward.

Cheers,

Tom
 
Old 08-31-2012, 04:58 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 17:30 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> Be honest Tom, do you think it is less or more risky timewise for him to
> switch, right now?

That's a good question. At the moment everything I really need, does
work as it should work. If I switch, nothing can become better, but it
could be as good as it is now. OTOH are there risks, that something I
need won't work anymore? Is systemd ready yet?

Please no flame war. I don't use "testing" repositories. I contribute to
Linux by testing some software, but I'm not a guinea pig for everything.
Startup does work today, will it work after switching to systemd? Is it
a safe bet?

Regards,
Ralf
 
Old 08-31-2012, 05:05 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Aug 31, 2012 6:59 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 17:30 +0100, Kevin Chadwick wrote:
> > Be honest Tom, do you think it is less or more risky timewise for him to
> > switch, right now?
>
> That's a good question. At the moment everything I really need, does
> work as it should work. If I switch, nothing can become better, but it
> could be as good as it is now. OTOH are there risks, that something I
> need won't work anymore? Is systemd ready yet?
>
> Please no flame war. I don't use "testing" repositories. I contribute to
> Linux by testing some software, but I'm not a guinea pig for everything.
> Startup does work today, will it work after switching to systemd? Is it
> a safe bet?

If you don't want to help with testing, and don't need/want any of the
systemd features, then you might as well wait until systemd becomes the
official recommendation.

Tom
 
Old 08-31-2012, 05:41 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

> > > People are grumbling about this compatibility layer, and I might
> > > change/remove it at some point. The reason I still have not ripped it
> > > out is that I like the fact that your system will "just work" as
> > > before if you add init=/bin/systemd to the kernel command line.
> > > Without the compatibility layer you'd have to also enable the relevant
> > > services (I guess that's not too much to ask though...).
> > >
> >
> > I think it's asking more than commenting out the DAEMONS line?
>
> I'm not following, what's the question?

Isn't getting rid of the compat layer going to be more work for some
(not too much to ask) than those who are grumbling simply commenting out
the DAEMONS line?

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-31-2012, 05:46 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

> > I will give one example. Lennart says come on who connects to sshd more
> > than once a month. I can't believe he's never seen a sshd log with
> > constant pass attempts even though passwords are disabled.
>
> You are misunderstanding the sshd example.

How? Systemds method would seem more problematic and wasteful to me if
you get connections to it a lot. Home connections even get many ssh
connection attempts and in any case it would seem to show he has no
experience in administration.

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-31-2012, 06:31 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Kevin Chadwick <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> > > People are grumbling about this compatibility layer, and I might
>> > > change/remove it at some point. The reason I still have not ripped it
>> > > out is that I like the fact that your system will "just work" as
>> > > before if you add init=/bin/systemd to the kernel command line.
>> > > Without the compatibility layer you'd have to also enable the relevant
>> > > services (I guess that's not too much to ask though...).
>> > >
>> >
>> > I think it's asking more than commenting out the DAEMONS line?
>>
>> I'm not following, what's the question?
>
> Isn't getting rid of the compat layer going to be more work for some
> (not too much to ask) than those who are grumbling simply commenting out
> the DAEMONS line?
>

You know it is not as bad as I thought - I converted two laptops today
to full systemd. Both run well after the conversion but I did it in
two stages. Here are my notes: Once systemd-sysvinit is installed then
initscripts and sysvinit have to be removed first and during the
process rc.conf became a pacsave file so the DAEMONS line is no longer
at that point after conversion. I hope these notes are helpful. The
complete process took 15 minutes in each case!

Working from arch systemd wiki

Convert rc.conf to systemd compatible form as recommended apart from
DAEMON array.

Install systemd systemd-arch-units using pacman.

Add init=/bin/systemd to end of kernel line in /boot/grub/menu.lst

Reboot - initially only console login as it hangs at graphical.target

At console hang after boot, hit return to get a login prompt then:

Log in as root and do
# systemctl enable graphical.target
# systemctl enable kdm.service

Reboot (by doing systemctl reboot) and get graphical login as normal.

Check that all previous daemons from rc.conf now started and if not enable them

1) iptables appears stopped

After a question on arch forum it seems that "active(exited)" is the
normal status as it is a one-shot service and does not run as a daemon
once the rules are loaded and dealt with by the kernel.

2) Seems alsa is legacy via rc.conf - it is running and sound is fine.

In second laptop alsa was taken out of the daemon array anyway so not needed

3) cpupower frequency-info shows normal output.

4) For the journal do mkdir /var/log/journal/ and also limit the
journalsize to 50M -
In /etc/systemd/journald.conf add a line:
SystemMaxUse=50M

5) Then needed pacman -R sysvinit initscripts
which did a pacsave for /etc/rc.conf and /etc/inittab

then pacman -S systemd-sysvcompat

The new systemd had already installed when pacman -Syu just before this -

6) Now need to reboot and check daemon load against rc.conf.pacsave

DAEMONS=(!hwclock syslog-ng iptables netfs crond sshd cupsd dbus
!rpcbind postfix dovecot networkmanager alsa cpupower bluetooth named
chrony)

Needed:
systemctl enable NetworkManager.service
systemctl enable cronie.service
systemctl enable sshd.service
systemctl enable postfix.service
systemctl enable dovecot.service
systemctl enable named.service
systemctl enable chrony.service
systemctl enable syslog-ng.service

also need:
systemctl status iptables.service
systemctl enable acpid.service
systemctl enable cups.service

Now have both syslog-ng in /var/log/messages.log and systemd journal
via journalctl

Conversion complete.

Did the OP do something similar or have different steps?
--
mike c
 
Old 08-31-2012, 08:22 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Aug 31, 2012 7:47 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > I will give one example. Lennart says come on who connects to sshd
more
> > > than once a month. I can't believe he's never seen a sshd log with
> > > constant pass attempts even though passwords are disabled.
> >
> > You are misunderstanding the sshd example.
>
> How? Systemds method would seem more problematic and wasteful to me if
> you get connections to it a lot.

The example explicitly only deals with the case where you do not get a lot
of connections. E.g. in a private network.

> Home connections even get many ssh
> connection attempts

If you have a pubic IP you'd be better off using the regular service and
not the xinet-style one.

Tom
 
Old 08-31-2012, 08:29 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Aug 31, 2012 7:47 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Isn't getting rid of the compat layer going to be more work for some
> (not too much to ask) than those who are grumbling simply commenting out
> the DAEMONS line?

Ah, got it. There is slightly more to it than that. The way it is done now
causes some confusion in a few cases (which might out-weigh the benefit).
Hopefully we'll find a good solution.

Tom
 
Old 09-01-2012, 05:23 AM
gt
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 06:58:02PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote:
> On Aug 31, 2012 6:32 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > Will this be an issue for him if he switches to full systemd as it has
> > removed inittab
>
> Yes, inittab is ignored. It would be trivial to add support for it via a
> generator, but I don't know of any reason to. We never really used inittab
> in Arch.

Just pointing out that I have been using the inittab method since 3
years. It is also mentioned in the arch wiki, and I am sure many people
use/used the inittab way.
 
Old 09-01-2012, 01:46 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

> On Aug 31, 2012 7:47 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > > I will give one example. Lennart says come on who connects to sshd
> more
> > > > than once a month. I can't believe he's never seen a sshd log with
> > > > constant pass attempts even though passwords are disabled.
> > >
> > > You are misunderstanding the sshd example.
> >
> > How? Systemds method would seem more problematic and wasteful to me if
> > you get connections to it a lot.
>
> The example explicitly only deals with the case where you do not get a lot
> of connections. E.g. in a private network.

"And even SSH: as long as nobody wants to contact your machine there is
no need to run it, as long as it is then started on the first
connection. (And admit it, on most machines where sshd might be
listening somebody connects to it only every other month or so.)"

Your just making stuff up now to cover his back, which questions many
of your many baseless responses simply stating I have shown I don't
understand systemd, end of discussion.

It is far less likely that ssh is used behind a firewall and there is
no mention of this, it is a fact that ssh is primarily used to cross
the internet where it will be connected to frequently on any connection
as long as it is set to the recommended default port.

>
> > Home connections even get many ssh
> > connection attempts
>
> If you have a pubic IP you'd be better off using the regular service and
> not the xinet-style one.
>
> Tom

The point is that much of his spec like bringing linux together and
assumptions are wrong and significant sacrifices for speed bring tiny
speed increases.

Here's another assumption.

"A central part of a system that starts up and maintains services should
be process babysitting: it should watch services. Restart them if they
shut down."

Wrong, few want this feature and respawn and especially baby sitting is
not a central feature of 'services' for an init system.

On single web server this may be desired and a user installs a
small package to do so that has features systemd hasn't and shouldn't
have.

In most cases it isn't true and if you have redundant services as most
do or a secure service, you don't want the service restarted as it may
have been exploited, the restart may even enable the exploit, so another
server will take over instead.

Right, you've got me to waste more time than I wished, so no more.

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 

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