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Old 08-31-2012, 11:02 AM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Kevin Chadwick <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> While the cause has been explained I think we are missing the Why or is
> it How.
>
> If dbus was out of order how come it worked under initscripts?

I have honestly no idea why the setup used to work (it never should
have), and what made it stop working (nothing should have changed).
Notice that the OP is still using initscripts. My best guess is there
was a race and somehow something sped-up or slowed down to make it
trigger.

> Is
> it because initscripts checks the list and starts dbus early in any case
> and the init script compatibility over-rid systemds similar behaviour?

Under initscripts all daemons are started exactly in the order given
in the DAEMONS array. With the exception of udevd which is started
unconditionally early on in rc.sysinit and does not have an rc script.

Under systemd the ordering is given in each of the service files, dbus
comes with its own service/socket files so that should be started
correctly (the socket is started very early on so it is always
available from the point of view of all the other daemons).

If you use systemd with the initscripts compatibility layer (i.e., you
have some rc scripts that don't yet have equivalent native systemd
service files), then the ordering of when to start them is taken from
the DAEMONS array as in initscripts. Notice however, that this is the
last fallback, and the ordering information given in any available
native service files take precedence.

People are grumbling about this compatibility layer, and I might
change/remove it at some point. The reason I still have not ripped it
out is that I like the fact that your system will "just work" as
before if you add init=/bin/systemd to the kernel command line.
Without the compatibility layer you'd have to also enable the relevant
services (I guess that's not too much to ask though...).

> I assumed they were used a little, if they are unused why are they
> required, dependencies?

Not entirely sure what you are asking. systemd-tools used to be a
dependency of initscripts (it is used all over the place), now
systemd-tools was merged into systemd, so systemd is a dependency of
initscripts. Does that answer your question?
 
Old 08-31-2012, 11:51 AM
Damjan Georgievski
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

>> While the cause has been explained I think we are missing the Why or is
>> it How.
>>
>> If dbus was out of order how come it worked under initscripts?
>
> I have honestly no idea why the setup used to work (it never should
> have), and what made it stop working (nothing should have changed).
> Notice that the OP is still using initscripts. My best guess is there
> was a race and somehow something sped-up or slowed down to make it
> trigger.

And this is yet another example how initscripts are broken.
I had a friend whose GDM was not coming up because it
was starting too fast after dbus. As a last resort we rearranged
the DAEMONS and moved gdm as the last daemon (after NM etc)
and it magically started to work.

With systemd you could start gdm as fast as you want and systemd would
make sure its dependencies are met, either by starting them first, or buffering
the socket/dbus calls.

--
damjan
 
Old 08-31-2012, 01:30 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 13:51 +0200, Damjan Georgievski wrote:
> >> While the cause has been explained I think we are missing the Why or is
> >> it How.
> >>
> >> If dbus was out of order how come it worked under initscripts?
> >
> > I have honestly no idea why the setup used to work (it never should
> > have), and what made it stop working (nothing should have changed).
> > Notice that the OP is still using initscripts. My best guess is there
> > was a race and somehow something sped-up or slowed down to make it
> > trigger.
>
> And this is yet another example how initscripts are broken.
> I had a friend whose GDM was not coming up because it
> was starting too fast after dbus. As a last resort we rearranged
> the DAEMONS and moved gdm as the last daemon (after NM etc)
> and it magically started to work.
>
> With systemd you could start gdm as fast as you want and systemd would
> make sure its dependencies are met, either by starting them first, or buffering
> the socket/dbus calls.

I use GDM too, but it's not in the DAEMONS list.

[root@archlinux spinymouse]# grep DAEMONS /etc/rc.conf
# DAEMONS
DAEMONS=(69switch_xorg.conf hwclock syslog-ng !network !netfs crond
acpid dbus networkmanager rtirq)
[root@archlinux spinymouse]# pacman -Qi gdm
Name : gdm
Version : 3.4.1-3

*?*
 
Old 08-31-2012, 03:15 PM
gt
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 03:30:43PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 13:51 +0200, Damjan Georgievski wrote:
> > And this is yet another example how initscripts are broken.
> > I had a friend whose GDM was not coming up because it
> > was starting too fast after dbus. As a last resort we rearranged
> > the DAEMONS and moved gdm as the last daemon (after NM etc)
> > and it magically started to work.
> I use GDM too, but it's not in the DAEMONS list.
>
> [root@archlinux spinymouse]# grep DAEMONS /etc/rc.conf
> # DAEMONS
> DAEMONS=(69switch_xorg.conf hwclock syslog-ng !network !netfs crond
> acpid dbus networkmanager rtirq)
> [root@archlinux spinymouse]# pacman -Qi gdm
> Name : gdm
> Version : 3.4.1-3
>
> *?*

You probably use the inittab method

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_Manager#inittab_method
 
Old 08-31-2012, 03:44 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

> People are grumbling about this compatibility layer, and I might
> change/remove it at some point. The reason I still have not ripped it
> out is that I like the fact that your system will "just work" as
> before if you add init=/bin/systemd to the kernel command line.
> Without the compatibility layer you'd have to also enable the relevant
> services (I guess that's not too much to ask though...).
>

I think it's asking more than commenting out the DAEMONS line?


> > I assumed they were used a little, if they are unused why are they
> > required, dependencies?
>
> Not entirely sure what you are asking. systemd-tools used to be a
> dependency of initscripts (it is used all over the place), now
> systemd-tools was merged into systemd, so systemd is a dependency of
> initscripts. Does that answer your question?


Thanks yeah, rc.sysinit explains the rest

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-31-2012, 03:54 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 20:45 +0530, gt wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 03:30:43PM +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 13:51 +0200, Damjan Georgievski wrote:
> > > And this is yet another example how initscripts are broken.
> > > I had a friend whose GDM was not coming up because it
> > > was starting too fast after dbus. As a last resort we rearranged
> > > the DAEMONS and moved gdm as the last daemon (after NM etc)
> > > and it magically started to work.
> > I use GDM too, but it's not in the DAEMONS list.
> >
> > [root@archlinux spinymouse]# grep DAEMONS /etc/rc.conf
> > # DAEMONS
> > DAEMONS=(69switch_xorg.conf hwclock syslog-ng !network !netfs crond
> > acpid dbus networkmanager rtirq)
> > [root@archlinux spinymouse]# pacman -Qi gdm
> > Name : gdm
> > Version : 3.4.1-3
> >
> > *?*
>
> You probably use the inittab method
>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_Manager#inittab_method

Correct and startup just takes some seconds not using systemd and I
never had issues. However, soon or later I'll switch to systemd. I don't
like to discuss this anymore, I don't like to switch, but I guess
there's no other choice. IMO it's unfair to claim that initscripts is
broken. There might be bugs, but it isn't broken. Some coder(s) have
done a good job, but today it sounds like initscripts is something
terrible. It is disrespectful not to honor that initscripts is something
good, even if there should be something better now.

Regards,
Ralf
 
Old 08-31-2012, 04:13 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

> > On Fri, 2012-08-31 at 13:51 +0200, Damjan Georgievski wrote:
> > > And this is yet another example how initscripts are broken.
> > > I had a friend whose GDM was not coming up because it
> > > was starting too fast after dbus. As a last resort we rearranged
> > > the DAEMONS and moved gdm as the last daemon (after NM etc)
> > > and it magically started to work.

Isn't it more likely that dbus and GDM are broken and it should be
started last anyway, there's no magic.

> > I use GDM too, but it's not in the DAEMONS list.
> >
> > [root@archlinux spinymouse]# grep DAEMONS /etc/rc.conf
> > # DAEMONS
> > DAEMONS=(69switch_xorg.conf hwclock syslog-ng !network !netfs crond
> > acpid dbus networkmanager rtirq)
> > [root@archlinux spinymouse]# pacman -Qi gdm
> > Name : gdm
> > Version : 3.4.1-3
> >
> > *?*
>
> You probably use the inittab method
>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_Manager#inittab_method

Will this be an issue for him if he switches to full systemd as it has
removed inittab (the one piece of init that all Linux distros had in
common).

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-31-2012, 04:30 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

> It is disrespectful not to honor that initscripts is something
> good, even if there should be something better now.

Don't listen, it isn't better, shell is awesome and so are init
scripts though a top notch consensus would be good. I can point out
multiple errors and wrong assumptions in just the first few paragraphs
on the systemd blog link that was posted again recently but I've had
enough time wasted on something that I've come to see as likely to fail
or get any more distro coverage. I don't think Lennart has much unix
admin experience. I'm not saying don't switch, you will get better
support for systemd on this list that's for sure.

I will give one example. Lennart says come on who connects to sshd more
than once a month. I can't believe he's never seen a sshd log with
constant pass attempts even though passwords are disabled.

Be honest Tom, do you think it is less or more risky timewise for him to
switch, right now?


--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-31-2012, 04:46 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Aug 31, 2012 6:31 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> I will give one example. Lennart says come on who connects to sshd more
> than once a month. I can't believe he's never seen a sshd log with
> constant pass attempts even though passwords are disabled.

You are misunderstanding the sshd example.

> Be honest Tom, do you think it is less or more risky timewise for him to
> switch, right now?

We have still not recommended that everyone should switch. The reason is
that we are still working on making the transition smoother and making sure
all edge-cases are covered.

The only thing to keep in mind is that if you rely on something
non-standard, it might be worth checking that it still works so we'll know
of any problems/blockers as soon as possible.

Tom
 
Old 08-31-2012, 04:49 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default libsystemd to systemd

On Aug 31, 2012 6:31 PM, "Kevin Chadwick" <ma1l1ists@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > People are grumbling about this compatibility layer, and I might
> > change/remove it at some point. The reason I still have not ripped it
> > out is that I like the fact that your system will "just work" as
> > before if you add init=/bin/systemd to the kernel command line.
> > Without the compatibility layer you'd have to also enable the relevant
> > services (I guess that's not too much to ask though...).
> >
>
> I think it's asking more than commenting out the DAEMONS line?

I'm not following, what's the question?

Tom
 

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