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Old 08-23-2012, 08:41 PM
Ike Devolder
 
Default systemd native files in etc

Op donderdag 23 augustus 2012 16:14:26 schreef Qadri:
> Hi all,
>
> Given all the hullabaloo about systemd I thought I'd try it out. I went to
> the wiki and saw that it has listed several "native systemd configuration
> files" that it looks for, and if they're absent, it takes info from
> rc.conf. It's "strongly advised" (by the wiki) to use the native files.
>
> Is there a package that provides these /etc files, like hostname,
> vconsole.conf, locale.conf? It feels weird creating untracked files in
> /etc. Is there interest in an aur package (e.g. systemd_etc_files) that I
> could make with all the many comments and options that are essentially in
> the rc.conf (or other files)? What package will eventually provide these?
>
> MAQ.

No there is no package providing those files.

why ?

if arch would provide you with defaults every time the defaults get updated
you would get *.pacnew files in your etc. since those files are depending on
your system and are user choice it would not be good to provide those.

so please don't create an AUR package providing those files.

--Ike
 
Old 08-23-2012, 08:43 PM
"Stephen E. Baker"
 
Default systemd native files in etc

On 23/08/2012 4:41 PM, Ike Devolder wrote:

Op donderdag 23 augustus 2012 16:14:26 schreef Qadri:

Hi all,

Given all the hullabaloo about systemd I thought I'd try it out. I went to
the wiki and saw that it has listed several "native systemd configuration
files" that it looks for, and if they're absent, it takes info from
rc.conf. It's "strongly advised" (by the wiki) to use the native files.

Is there a package that provides these /etc files, like hostname,
vconsole.conf, locale.conf? It feels weird creating untracked files in
/etc. Is there interest in an aur package (e.g. systemd_etc_files) that I
could make with all the many comments and options that are essentially in
the rc.conf (or other files)? What package will eventually provide these?

MAQ.

No there is no package providing those files.

why ?

if arch would provide you with defaults every time the defaults get updated
you would get *.pacnew files in your etc. since those files are depending on
your system and are user choice it would not be good to provide those.

so please don't create an AUR package providing those files.

--Ike
This logic never applied before. mirrorlist, locale.gen, and many other
files are always configured and included in packages. I don't
necessarily mind the decision but I can't believe it was that simple.
Was there any discussion about this somewhere?


Stephen E. Baker
 
Old 08-23-2012, 09:41 PM
Qadri
 
Default systemd native files in etc

>> if arch would provide you with defaults every time the defaults get
>> updated
>> you would get *.pacnew files in your etc. since those files are depending
>> on
>> your system and are user choice it would not be good to provide those.
>>
>> By that logic, wouldn't I also not get an rc.conf file and rc.conf.pacnew
files? This is provided by the initscripts package, I believe, so I thought
maybe these files would be in the systemd package but they were not.
Perhaps this is a transition decision.

It just seems like if there are 10 files that need to be created on every
machine and then customized, why not make a package for it so that you
don't need to remember the exact filename every time?


>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 4:43 PM, Stephen E. Baker <
> baker.stephen.e@gmail.com> wrote:
>
This logic never applied before. mirrorlist, locale.gen, and many other
> files are always configured and included in packages. I don't necessarily
> mind the decision but I can't believe it was that simple. Was there any
> discussion about this somewhere?
>
> Googling for this is difficult because the question gets asked about every
package's service file so the signal to noise about this exact topic is
low. Any devs lying around with more knowledge/experience?

MAQ.
 
Old 08-23-2012, 11:44 PM
Sébastien Leblanc
 
Default systemd native files in etc

Could default templates be provided in the post_install(){} hook for
the systemd package? Something like

post_install()*{
if [*! -e /etc/timezone ] ; then
cat > /etc/timezone <<EOF
UTC
fi

if [ ! -e /etc/localtime ] ; then
ln -s /usr/share/zoneinfo/UTC /etc/localtime
fi

if [ ! -e /etc/hostname ] ; then
hostname > /etc/hostname
fi
}

That way, on upgrade, they would not be overwritten, but on install
you would at least have working settings.


--
Sébastien Leblanc
 
Old 08-24-2012, 07:47 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default systemd native files in etc

The 23/08/12, Ike Devolder wrote:

> No there is no package providing those files.
>
> why ?
>
> if arch would provide you with defaults every time the defaults get updated
> you would get *.pacnew files in your etc. since those files are depending on
> your system and are user choice it would not be good to provide those.

What upgrade are you talking about? OP is talking about configuration
files not willing to be upgraded for years (if not for their whole life
time).

I tend to think it's a mistake.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 08-24-2012, 07:56 AM
Oon-Ee Ng
 
Default systemd native files in etc

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:47 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
> The 23/08/12, Ike Devolder wrote:
>
>> No there is no package providing those files.
>>
>> why ?
>>
>> if arch would provide you with defaults every time the defaults get updated
>> you would get *.pacnew files in your etc. since those files are depending on
>> your system and are user choice it would not be good to provide those.
>
> What upgrade are you talking about? OP is talking about configuration
> files not willing to be upgraded for years (if not for their whole life
> time).
>
> I tend to think it's a mistake.
>
> --
> Nicolas Sebrecht

If the files are provided in linked packages to their functionality,
there'd be a new .pacnew everytime the linked package was updated.

If the files are grouped together in a 'default-confs' package, if for
any reason upstream changes any one of them, all the rest would
generate a .pacnew
 
Old 08-24-2012, 08:53 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default systemd native files in etc

The 24/08/12, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:

> If the files are provided in linked packages to their functionality,
> there'd be a new .pacnew everytime the linked package was updated.

I have no idea what you are talking about, sorry. Packages have
dependencies to other packages and I don't know how a package can be
linked to a "functionnality". There is no SONAME for configuration
files.

Packages ― including dependencies ― have a litteral name and a version
to know if a it needs update. As long as version dependency is not
bumped, there won't have update (see dep_vercmp() in libalpm
http://projects.archlinux.org/pacman.git/tree/lib/libalpm/deps.c#n353).

BTW, my point is what kind of upgrade can you reasonably expect for
such files, which you don't reply to.

> If the files are grouped together in a 'default-confs' package, if for
> any reason upstream changes any one of them, all the rest would
> generate a .pacnew

Which remains to my previous point: what kind of reason could require an
update for such files ?

As a side note upstream is arch maintainers, here.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 08-24-2012, 08:57 AM
Oon-Ee Ng
 
Default systemd native files in etc

On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Nicolas Sebrecht <nsebrecht@piing.fr> wrote:
>
> BTW, my point is what kind of upgrade can you reasonably expect for
> such files, which you don't reply to.

I can't see the future. 2 years ago would anyone have suggested the
current arrangement?
>
>> If the files are grouped together in a 'default-confs' package, if for
>> any reason upstream changes any one of them, all the rest would
>> generate a .pacnew
>
> Which remains to my previous point: what kind of reason could require an
> update for such files ?
>
> As a side note upstream is arch maintainers, here.

My understanding is that the conf file locations (and contents) are
synchronized between distros. A side-effect of systemd. Hence I don't
believe Arch is upstream in this case.

I do not know what sort of reason could require an update. I also
would not bet on the files being in the same form and at the same
location forever.
 
Old 08-24-2012, 09:17 AM
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Default systemd native files in etc

The 24/08/12, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:

> My understanding is that the conf file locations (and contents) are
> synchronized between distros. A side-effect of systemd. Hence I don't
> believe Arch is upstream in this case.

AFAIK, systemd does not provide samples for /etc/localtime,
/etc/vconsole.conf, etc. It provides manual pages only.

If it would, not including them in the package would break the KISS
principle as arch would not stick as near as possible to upstream.

> I do not know what sort of reason could require an update. I also
> would not bet on the files being in the same form and at the same
> location forever.

Ok, I understand you. This leads to my next point: I do expect pacman to
notify me with .pacnew files if a package like systemd require changes
in configuration files. It would not be annoyance but expected
behaviour.

--
Nicolas Sebrecht
 
Old 08-24-2012, 09:48 AM
Paul Gideon Dann
 
Default systemd native files in etc

On Thursday 23 Aug 2012 16:14:26 Qadri wrote:
> Is there a package that provides these /etc files, like hostname,
> vconsole.conf, locale.conf? It feels weird creating untracked files in
> /etc. Is there interest in an aur package (e.g. systemd_etc_files) that I
> could make with all the many comments and options that are essentially in
> the rc.conf (or other files)? What package will eventually provide these?

This seems like a no-brainer to me. These files should be in the filesystem
package, along with fstab, crypttab, os-release, hosts, and all the other
essential configuration files that are already there.

These files form part of a new standard (or at least that is the intention),
and both initscripts and systemd support them.

Furthermore, although some people are talking about .pacnew files being created
all the time, this just won't happen. Pacnew files are only created when the
files are changed between package versions, which will rarely occur: most of
these files will be empty by default, or contain some kind of brief
documentation. The last time I remember fstab changing was when /tmp became a
tmpfs by default, and I was glad pacman brought the change to my attention.
The same is true of /etc/passwd and /etc/group (and friends).

Paul
 

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