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Old 08-17-2012, 04:26 AM
John Reiser
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

How much of Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3 netinst.iso should I expect to work?
It booted from DVD on bare metal and brought up graphics, but after that
I encountered many problems.

Media_check did not run, despite being included in the default selection
on the boot screen ("verify source...").

<Tab> did not move the focus to the next graphical button on the Choose
Language screen.

There was no progress indicator for Installation Source, Software Selection
(downloading repo info, checking dependencies), or Installation Destination
(examining storage devices).

The left box (Desktop) of Installation type (Base, GNOME, KDE, LXDE,
Sugar, XFCE) was unclear. Is it a radio-button list (select only one)
but without the buttons? The box abuts the left margin, and looks like
something has been cut off on the left. The right box (Addons) was
hard to track. There should be a separate list of current selections.
There should be an option to hide/display the descriptions (with the
names always displayed.) It should be possible to search by regex.
Display of dependencies should be available.

Installation Destination gave only the barest info: disk manufacturer
and model, with gross capacity. There was no connection information
(sda, sdb, ...; pci-...-scsi-...; usbN; etc.). Horizontal scrolling sucks;
my box has 5 drives, and I want to see them all at once.
Sometimes I have multiple drives of the same make and model,
so I need to see the serial numbers, too.
I want to see the volume label type (MSDOS, GPT, Apple, ...),
plus the partitions, size, label, filesystem type, used space,
unused space, last mount point: everything that gparted displays.
There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.

Then the installer crashed, and the bug report via network to bugzilla
was incomplete because "you do not have permission to access the file".
[Bug 848994] New: IndexError: list index out of range

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Old 08-17-2012, 08:40 AM
Vratislav Podzimek
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 21:26 -0700, John Reiser wrote:
> Then the installer crashed, and the bug report via network to bugzilla
> was incomplete because "you do not have permission to access the file".
This is a known issue (bug in libreport) and should be fixed in a new
libreport build for F18. In the meantime please use this workaround --
uncheck all empty items in the provided information overview.

--
Vratislav Podzimek

Anaconda Rider | Red Hat, Inc. | Brno - Czech Republic

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Old 08-17-2012, 02:08 PM
Bill Nottingham
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

John Reiser (jreiser@bitwagon.com) said:
> The left box (Desktop) of Installation type (Base, GNOME, KDE, LXDE,
> Sugar, XFCE) was unclear. Is it a radio-button list (select only one)
> but without the buttons? The box abuts the left margin, and looks like
> something has been cut off on the left. The right box (Addons) was
> hard to track. There should be a separate list of current selections.
> There should be an option to hide/display the descriptions (with the
> names always displayed.) It should be possible to search by regex.
> Display of dependencies should be available.

This is being reworked currently.

Bill

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Old 08-17-2012, 02:11 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

> How much of Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3 netinst.iso should I expect to work?
> It booted from DVD on bare metal and brought up graphics, but after that
> I encountered many problems.

The minimum is
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_18_Alpha_Release_Criteria.

> Media_check did not run, despite being included in the default selection
> on the boot screen ("verify source...").

I don't know that this has actually been tested yet. I've tested the
graphical media check button on the installation source spoke, and that
has worked in the past.

> <Tab> did not move the focus to the next graphical button on the Choose
> Language screen.

Tab works as I expect it both on the initial welcome language screen, as
well as the language spoke off the first hub. All UI elements are
focusable.

> There was no progress indicator for Installation Source, Software Selection
> (downloading repo info, checking dependencies), or Installation Destination
> (examining storage devices).

Right, progress indicators are really hard to do and are a never-ending
source of bugs. They're especially hard to do for things that involve
the network. Additionally, feedback we've gotten in the past says we
have way too many popups.

So the idea here is that you can go do other stuff while long-running
tasks work themselves out which makes progress indicators a little less
helpful.

> The left box (Desktop) of Installation type (Base, GNOME, KDE, LXDE,
> Sugar, XFCE) was unclear. Is it a radio-button list (select only one)
> but without the buttons? The box abuts the left margin, and looks like
> something has been cut off on the left.

It's a radio button list. This is perhaps a little unclear. I'll talk
to mizmo about adding radio buttons.

By "the box abuts the left margin", you just mean that it looks odd
without any sort of button/box next to it, right? If you mean something
else, can you attach a screenshot?

> The right box (Addons) was
> hard to track. There should be a separate list of current selections.

This screen is unfinished. When it's finished, I think it will be a
little easier to keep track of.

> There should be an option to hide/display the descriptions (with the
> names always displayed.) It should be possible to search by regex.
> Display of dependencies should be available.

Why? No one has ever asked for these sorts of things before, and
they'd have to have pretty good justifications.

> Installation Destination gave only the barest info: disk manufacturer
> and model, with gross capacity. There was no connection information
> (sda, sdb, ...; pci-...-scsi-...; usbN; etc.).

We've not gotten much feedback asking for this. USB devices should be
able to be shown with a different icon, but we've not done that yet.

> Horizontal scrolling sucks;
> my box has 5 drives, and I want to see them all at once.

There is a limit to how much can be displayed at once. I'm sure there
are people out there with 20 drives who want to see them all at once.
You can use the disk shopping cart (button on the bottom left) to see
what all you've got selected at once, though.

Horizontal scrolling - does the box not scroll with the keyboard? We've
had this problem elsewhere and if that's happening, I should be able to
fix it.

> Sometimes I have multiple drives of the same make and model,
> so I need to see the serial numbers, too.

The serial number is available if you hover the mouse.

> I want to see the volume label type (MSDOS, GPT, Apple, ...),
> plus the partitions, size, label, filesystem type, used space,
> unused space, last mount point: everything that gparted displays.

We might be able to work used and unused space in somehow (original
mockups had little pie chart things for this), but some of the rest is
not ever going to make it into a UI.

> There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
> required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.

What?

- Chris

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Old 08-17-2012, 03:17 PM
John Reiser
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

>> <Tab> did not move the focus to the next graphical button on the Choose
>> Language screen.

> Tab works as I expect it both on the initial welcome language screen, as
> well as the language spoke off the first hub. All UI elements are
> focusable.

<Tab> did not move focus for me; or perhaps it did, but the newly-focused
button was not highlighted. I'll file a bug.

>
>> There was no progress indicator for Installation Source, Software Selection
>> (downloading repo info, checking dependencies), or Installation Destination
>> (examining storage devices).
>
> Right, progress indicators are really hard to do and are a never-ending
> source of bugs. They're especially hard to do for things that involve
> the network. Additionally, feedback we've gotten in the past says we
> have way too many popups.
>
> So the idea here is that you can go do other stuff while long-running
> tasks work themselves out which makes progress indicators a little less
> helpful.

There is a 5-second deadline. Anything longer requires a progress bar
(or at least some changing indicator "I'm still alive"), else it's equivalent
to a "hang". It is much more pleasant to have a progress bar. I'll wait
patiently much longer if I have some reasonable indication of how close
it is to being done, and if I can estimate the completion time.

>
>> The left box (Desktop) of Installation type (Base, GNOME, KDE, LXDE,
>> Sugar, XFCE) was unclear. Is it a radio-button list (select only one)
>> but without the buttons? The box abuts the left margin, and looks like
>> something has been cut off on the left.
>
> It's a radio button list. This is perhaps a little unclear. I'll talk
> to mizmo about adding radio buttons.
>
> By "the box abuts the left margin", you just mean that it looks odd
> without any sort of button/box next to it, right? If you mean something
> else, can you attach a screenshot?

There needs to be a margin, else it looks like something was cut off.
Also, it's really hard to read when the first character of a line
has less than 0.5 'n' of space to the left.

[snip]

>> Horizontal scrolling sucks;
>> my box has 5 drives, and I want to see them all at once.
>
> There is a limit to how much can be displayed at once. I'm sure there
> are people out there with 20 drives who want to see them all at once.
> You can use the disk shopping cart (button on the bottom left) to see
> what all you've got selected at once, though.
>
> Horizontal scrolling - does the box not scroll with the keyboard? We've
> had this problem elsewhere and if that's happening, I should be able to
> fix it.

The box scrolls with the mouse, but there are only 2 drives visible at
any time. An ordinary table of text, with columns of attributes and rows
of drives (including a small icon for the type of drive) would be better.
Such a table could list 12 drives easily before vertical scrolling
would become necessary. Horizontal scrolling would allow more
attributes at once, there could be 6 or 7 columns of attributes
(icon, make, model, size, serial, MSDOS/GPT/Apple) before scrolling.

>
>> Sometimes I have multiple drives of the same make and model,
>> so I need to see the serial numbers, too.
>
> The serial number is available if you hover the mouse.

If I can't see it, and am not told it's there, then it isn't there.
Requiring hover is also bad for those who use assisting technologies.

>> There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
>> required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.
>
> What?

If disk discovery gets something wrong. then there is a moderate chance
of data loss, and that would be catastrophic. The GUI tells me if LVM2
was discovered. It also should tell me if LVM2 was _not_ discovered.

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Old 08-17-2012, 03:41 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

> > Tab works as I expect it both on the initial welcome language screen, as
> > well as the language spoke off the first hub. All UI elements are
> > focusable.
>
> <Tab> did not move focus for me; or perhaps it did, but the newly-focused
> button was not highlighted. I'll file a bug.

I can't reproduce it, though, so I don't know what I can possibly do. I
tried with both a locally built image and with the TC3 one up for
download.

> There is a 5-second deadline. Anything longer requires a progress bar
> (or at least some changing indicator "I'm still alive"), else it's equivalent
> to a "hang". It is much more pleasant to have a progress bar. I'll wait
> patiently much longer if I have some reasonable indication of how close
> it is to being done, and if I can estimate the completion time.

What I'm saying, though, is that we can't provide a reasonable
indication of things. We've played the pervasive progress bar game in
the past, and it just didn't work. A lot of our progress bars weren't
even progress, they just bounced back and forth. This is because for a
lot of things we can't make good guesses about how long it's going to
take (network troubles), and a lot of things make it extremely difficult
(screen scraping mkfs output).

> There needs to be a margin, else it looks like something was cut off.
> Also, it's really hard to read when the first character of a line
> has less than 0.5 'n' of space to the left.

Can you take a screenshot? I'm definitely seeing a good amount of
margin on both the left and right sides that make it easy to read. I
wonder if this is an artifact of screensize.

> The box scrolls with the mouse, but there are only 2 drives visible at
> any time. An ordinary table of text, with columns of attributes and rows
> of drives (including a small icon for the type of drive) would be better.
> Such a table could list 12 drives easily before vertical scrolling
> would become necessary. Horizontal scrolling would allow more
> attributes at once, there could be 6 or 7 columns of attributes
> (icon, make, model, size, serial, MSDOS/GPT/Apple) before scrolling.

This makes for a wall of text UI which isn't really very pleasing at
all. We can make minor changes, of course, but this big grid of
overwhelming data is really something we're trying to get away from.
I'd love to get mizmo's take on this.

> If I can't see it, and am not told it's there, then it isn't there.
> Requiring hover is also bad for those who use assisting technologies.

We can work on making information more discoverable, but the answer is
not to generate a giant table of data.

> >> There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
> >> required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.
> >
> > What?
>
> If disk discovery gets something wrong. then there is a moderate chance
> of data loss, and that would be catastrophic. The GUI tells me if LVM2
> was discovered. It also should tell me if LVM2 was _not_ discovered.

Should we also tell you that RAID was not discovered? Multipath was not
discovered? What else do you want to know wasn't there? We can't read
your mind as to what you think should be on a disk and then tell you
that we didn't find it correctly.

You are doing an installation, please make backups. That's the first
advice you get everywhere.

- Chris

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Old 08-17-2012, 03:49 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

> Media_check did not run, despite being included in the default selection
> on the boot screen ("verify source...").

Verified. I don't know what's supposed to be happening here, but I'll
look into it.

- Chris

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Old 08-17-2012, 04:18 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

Hi John,

On Thu, 2012-08-16 at 21:26 -0700, John Reiser wrote:
> Installation Destination gave only the barest info: disk manufacturer
> and model, with gross capacity. There was no connection information
> (sda, sdb, ...; pci-...-scsi-...; usbN; etc.).

We don't show sda/sdb/usbN/scsi (at least if you have more than one scsi
card) because those are not reliable and can change from boot-to-boot
because they're assigned based on scan ordering and the order in which
the relevant modules are loaded. We're very cautious about protecting
users from dataloss where we can, so if a storage label is not
persistent / reliable, we decided to not use it.

We do plan to show different icons for disks based on their type as
Chris described further down in the thread, but I think those are for
USB vs local disk vs network disk. So if knowing a disk is pci vs scsi
is helpful in identifying a given disk, we could consider putting in the
hover information alongside the serial number.

> Horizontal scrolling sucks;
> my box has 5 drives, and I want to see them all at once.

Can you tell us a little bit more about your setup? I'm guessing it's a
desktop machine, right? What kind of drives do you have in it, how do
you use them? Are they all the same size and RAIDed, or does each have a
different OS, or...?

We're trying to design the UI to be as seamless as possibly for the
majority of users who would use a GUI to install Fedora, which we've
found is overwhelmingly laptop users who are necessarily limited to a
small max bound of disks. However, we still want it to work for other
cases.

> Sometimes I have multiple drives of the same make and model,
> so I need to see the serial numbers, too.

We do display those if you hover over the drives. How do you know the
serial number - do you open up the box and look so you are sure?

> I want to see the volume label type (MSDOS, GPT, Apple, ...),
> plus the partitions, size, label, filesystem type, used space,
> unused space, last mount point: everything that gparted displays.

If you want to see all of the information that gparted displays, I would
suggest using gparted. The installer environment is necessarily limited;
folks with more advanced use cases should use specialized software like
gparted in an environment meant for that for a better experience.

Right now if you select a disk in this screen and continue, we will try
to use any free space available on the disk. If there isn't enough free
space available we'll offer to shrink the FS for you. We will never
overwrite data on the disk unless you tell us to.

The new ui will have a section in the first screen of the storage spoke
for working with specialized disks - I don't think it's turned on in the
UI for Fedora and it won't be, but it will for RHEL - that has a tabular
format for working with iSCSI, hardware RAID, DASD/zFCP, and other SAN
devices.

> There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
> required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.

Can you tell us a little bit more about what you were looking to do
here?


~m

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Old 08-17-2012, 04:38 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Fri, 2012-08-17 at 08:17 -0700, John Reiser wrote:
> There is a 5-second deadline. Anything longer requires a progress bar
> (or at least some changing indicator "I'm still alive"), else it's equivalent
> to a "hang".

The number from Jakob Nielsen's studies is actually 10 seconds, FWIW:
http://www.webperformancetoday.com/tag/jakob-nielsen/

> > By "the box abuts the left margin", you just mean that it looks odd
> > without any sort of button/box next to it, right? If you mean something
> > else, can you attach a screenshot?
>
> There needs to be a margin, else it looks like something was cut off.
> Also, it's really hard to read when the first character of a line
> has less than 0.5 'n' of space to the left.

This is really hard to figure out without a screenshot, can you send
one? It shouldn't look as you're describing so there may be a bug
affecting the margins.

> The box scrolls with the mouse, but there are only 2 drives visible at
> any time. An ordinary table of text, with columns of attributes and rows
> of drives (including a small icon for the type of drive) would be better.
> Such a table could list 12 drives easily before vertical scrolling
> would become necessary. Horizontal scrolling would allow more
> attributes at once, there could be 6 or 7 columns of attributes
> (icon, make, model, size, serial, MSDOS/GPT/Apple) before scrolling.

The box should show 4-5 drives before requiring scrolling, so I think
this issue would also be more easily sorted with a screenshot of this
screen, can you provide one?

> If I can't see it, and am not told it's there, then it isn't there.

Do we have anything set for right-click on the drives right now? Maybe
we could have it pop up on right-click since right-click is commonly
used for 'more details' about an object?

> Requiring hover is also bad for those who use assisting technologies.

Mouseover hovers are fine so long as keyboard focus triggers the same
hover, since some assisting technologies involve the use of keyboard,
joystick, or switches. Users who use assisting technologies where
eye-tracking moves the mouse (head or eye-tracking equipment) use blinks
to click the mouse so they could still hover as well.

> >> There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
> >> required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.
> >
> > What?
>
> If disk discovery gets something wrong. then there is a moderate chance
> of data loss, and that would be catastrophic. The GUI tells me if LVM2
> was discovered. It also should tell me if LVM2 was _not_ discovered.

You should always back up your data before running an installer,
especially one that's under heavy development.

~m

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Old 08-17-2012, 06:07 PM
Chris Murphy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Aug 17, 2012, at 9:41 AM, Chris Lumens wrote:

>> If I can't see it, and am not told it's there, then it isn't there.
>> Requiring hover is also bad for those who use assisting technologies.
>
> We can work on making information more discoverable, but the answer is
> not to generate a giant table of data.

I agree the answer is to not generate a wall of data.

In the order users identify disks by
- user defined metadata (i.e. partition/volume labels)
- price
- size
- make/model
- device tree location or enclosure brand if USB/FW
- serial number

Obviously you can't show price. But I don't understand why existing partition/volume labels aren't displayed. User metadata is highly recognizable to users. Connections and serial numbers are much more obscure.

Arguably if every drive were size, make, model identical, then size, make, model shouldn't even be displayed, only uniquely identifying information should be displayed, in order to both uniquely identify disks (the point of the UI) and avoid the UI clutter wall of data syndrome.


Chris Murphy

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