FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor

Go Back   Linux Archive > ArchLinux > ArchLinux General Discussion

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 08-17-2012, 06:45 PM
Chris Murphy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

1.
Installation Summary: has a Continue button
Date & Time: depends on Back button to continue
Language: depends on Back button to continue
Keyboard: depends on Back button to continue
Installation Source: depends on Back button to continue
Network Configuration: depends on Back button to continue
Software Selection: depends on Back button to continue
Installation Destination: has a Continue button

Seeing as the UI lets me do these things in any order, it seems arbitrary that Storage alone gets a "Continue" button.

2.
If all Installation Summary items are complete, lacking an orange triangle warning, I can "Continue" from the installation summary page. However, if I merely enter Installation Source, make no changes, and click "Back," now "Software Selection" inexplicably has an orange triangle next to it, and I can no longer "Continue" from the installation summary page, as the Continue button is grayed out.

3.
Despite the condition where I cannot Continue from the Installation Summary, if I go into Installation Destination, the Continue button there is not grayed out. If I click it, and click Continue on the dialog which appears, I'm returned to Installation Summary.


Chris Murphy

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 06:57 PM
John Reiser
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

Hi Máirín,

> We don't show sda/sdb/usbN/scsi (at least if you have more than one scsi
> card) because those are not reliable and can change from boot-to-boot
> because they're assigned based on scan ordering and the order in which
> the relevant modules are loaded. We're very cautious about protecting
> users from dataloss where we can, so if a storage label is not
> persistent / reliable, we decided to not use it.

The hardware never mixes up the Primary IDE Master, Primary IDE Slave,
Secondary IDE Master, Secondary IDE Slave. /usr/sbin/dmidecode tells all.

dmidecode also seems to work for SATA:
DMI type 8, 9 bytes;
Port Connector Information
Internal Reference Designator: SATA4 (note the '4')
Internal Connector Type: On Board IDE

I can open the box, look at the cables, read the silkscreen labels on the
mainboard, [apply the mobo/BIOS errata], and read the labels/serial numbers
on the drives. Surely *something* in /sys (etc.) can do the equivalent
matching, even if the kernel chooses not to do so for daily operations.
But install is not a daily operation, and more care is appropriate
during install.

If persistence and reliability is the criterion, then drive serial numbers
win; so don't hide them. And where are the facilities for dealing with
UUID of partitions?

[snip]

> Can you tell us a little bit more about your setup? I'm guessing it's a
> desktop machine, right? What kind of drives do you have in it, how do
> you use them? Are they all the same size and RAIDed, or does each have a
> different OS, or...?

This box is a common self-built mid-tower with 4 drives (2 IDE, 2 SATA)
plus an ATAPI Zip drive (usually empty). There are about three dozen hard
partitions. Mostly, each is the root of a different installed version:
Fedora and Ubuntu, i686 and x86_64, going back many years. As a consultant,
I must run what my customers run (future customers, too.)
Most customers run 1 to 3 years behind the bleeding edge,
and they don't run virtualized systems. The bugs are different,
and I cannot afford to waste any more time chasing non-reproducible cases.

>
> We're trying to design the UI to be as seamless as possibly for the
> majority of users who would use a GUI to install Fedora, which we've
> found is overwhelmingly laptop users who are necessarily limited to a
> small max bound of disks. However, we still want it to work for other
> cases.

I run into a similar situation in software development. The target market
wants and needs a fairly simple solution, but the early adopters and
gate-keepers tend to be experts who will not accept "toys".

>
>> Sometimes I have multiple drives of the same make and model,
>> so I need to see the serial numbers, too.
>
> We do display those if you hover over the drives. How do you know the
> serial number - do you open up the box and look so you are sure?

I have a paper list created during physical assembly of my own boxes,
and a text file. I also have screenshots from gparted. For customer
boxes, sometimes I open the box and look. I also run a LiveCD,
then read syslog, and run smartctl and hdparm.

[snip]
>
>> There was no message "No LVM2 structures were found" which is
>> required in order to increase my confidence and help detect errors.
>
> Can you tell us a little bit more about what you were looking to do
> here?

I want more assurance that the installer has correctly detected the
storage configuration. This part of the installer is a scout that
I send on a reconnaissance mission. A good scout reports not only
what was seen, but also what was checked for but not observed.
That category of "I looked for it, but did not see it" is just as
important as "I looked for it, and did see it."

--

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 07:18 PM
John Reiser
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On 08/17/2012 09:38 AM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

> This is really hard to figure out without a screenshot, can you send
> one? It shouldn't look as you're describing so there may be a bug
> affecting the margins.

At first, no I could not take a screenshot. I was using an Apple keyboard
which does not have a PrtScr key. (And no, I'm not going to type <AltGr>
and three digits, particularly if the anaconda documentation doesn't say
what those three digits are.) But then I found a PC keyboard.
I submitted screenshots for bugs 849211, 848215, 848218.
It would be nice if "esoteric" keys were not required to take a screenshot.
Have an _additional_ key combination that is more likely
to be available on all keyboards.

[snip]

> You should always back up your data before running an installer,
> especially one that's under heavy development.

I've already done that. It took several hours at 50MB/s.
I'd prefer to avoid doing the corresponding restore.

The point is that the installer looked for LVM2, raid, multi-path, etc.,
and did not find any. Please tell me so explicitly, so that
*I* can avoid perception mistakes (not seeing what I'm not expecting
even though it's there, ...)

--

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 07:34 PM
Chris Lumens
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

> Installation Summary: has a Continue button
> Date & Time: depends on Back button to continue
> Language: depends on Back button to continue
> Keyboard: depends on Back button to continue
> Installation Source: depends on Back button to continue
> Network Configuration: depends on Back button to continue
> Software Selection: depends on Back button to continue
> Installation Destination: has a Continue button
>
> Seeing as the UI lets me do these things in any order, it seems
> arbitrary that Storage alone gets a "Continue" button.

Unfortunately, Storage is special.

What you need to know is that the Continue button on the storage spoke
does not move you ahead from the hub. It potentially takes you back to
the hub, but perhaps first sends you through other screens (the disk tug
of war screen that's not written yet, or custom partitioning, or other
such things). In that case, hitting Back and then going through other
things instead of back to where you were doesn't make a lot of sense.

So yeah, the storage back button isn't the same as the hub back button.
I don't really have a good answer for how to make this nicer, though
we've certainly thought a lot about it.

> 2. If all Installation Summary items are complete, lacking an orange
> triangle warning, I can "Continue" from the installation summary page.
> However, if I merely enter Installation Source, make no changes, and
> click "Back," now "Software Selection" inexplicably has an orange
> triangle next to it, and I can no longer "Continue" from the
> installation summary page, as the Continue button is grayed out.

I think the problem here is that we didn't detect that you left the
Installation Source spoke unchanged. What we're trying to do here is
fetch metadata for your source, which necessarily invalidates the
Software Selection spoke (what if the group data is completely
different?) so you can't go in there. That means you can't yet
continue.

So if you don't do anything, we shouldn't try to do anything either.
That'd fix this up.

> 3. Despite the condition where I cannot Continue from the
> Installation Summary, if I go into Installation Destination, the
> Continue button there is not grayed out. If I click it, and click
> Continue on the dialog which appears, I'm returned to Installation
> Summary.

Right, I think this is confusion that the two continue buttons are the
same when in fact they are not. Again, I don't have any good ideas on
how to make that situation better.

- Chris

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 07:35 PM
David Lehman
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Fri, 2012-08-17 at 12:18 -0700, John Reiser wrote:
> The point is that the installer looked for LVM2, raid, multi-path, etc.,
> and did not find any. Please tell me so explicitly, so that
> *I* can avoid perception mistakes (not seeing what I'm not expecting
> even though it's there, ...)

With all due respect, we're not going to do that. If you want to see
what anaconda found before you proceed, check the box that says you want
to review and modify the partitions on your own. Anaconda will not
change your storage configuration until you hit "Continue" on the main
install hub.

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 08:09 PM
Jesse Keating
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On 08/17/2012 12:18 PM, John Reiser wrote:

The point is that the installer looked for LVM2, raid, multi-path, etc.,
and did not find any. Please tell me so explicitly, so that
*I* can avoid perception mistakes (not seeing what I'm not expecting
even though it's there, ...)


If you're really concerned, you can read through the log files.
Otherwise it's too much information to display on screen.


--
Jesse Keating
Fedora -- Freedom˛ is a feature!

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 08:25 PM
Máirín Duffy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Fri, 2012-08-17 at 12:45 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
> 1.
> Installation Summary: has a Continue button
> Date & Time: depends on Back button to continue
> Language: depends on Back button to continue
> Keyboard: depends on Back button to continue
> Installation Source: depends on Back button to continue
> Network Configuration: depends on Back button to continue
> Software Selection: depends on Back button to continue
> Installation Destination: has a Continue button
>
> Seeing as the UI lets me do these things in any order, it seems arbitrary that Storage alone gets a "Continue" button.

Storage is more than one step. The other dialogs aren't. Storage is by
far the most complex section. So it's not arbitrary.

> 2. If all Installation Summary items are complete, lacking an orange
> triangle warning, I can "Continue" from the installation summary page.
> However, if I merely enter Installation Source, make no changes, and
> click "Back," now "Software Selection" inexplicably has an orange
> triangle next to it, and I can no longer "Continue" from the
> installation summary page, as the Continue button is grayed out.

That sounds like a bug if you didn't make any changes.

> 3. Despite the condition where I cannot Continue from the Installation
> Summary, if I go into Installation Destination, the Continue button
> there is not grayed out. If I click it, and click Continue on the
> dialog which appears, I'm returned to Installation Summary.

Are you confused because the storage section has a continue that isn't
the same as the installation summary's continue?

The installation summary's continue was labeled 'continue with install'
http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Projects/Anaconda/Prototypes/Previews/hub-mock_15jun.1.png

Is that not the case now?

~m

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 09:14 PM
Chris Murphy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Aug 17, 2012, at 1:34 PM, Chris Lumens wrote:

>> Installation Summary: has a Continue button
>> Date & Time: depends on Back button to continue
>> Language: depends on Back button to continue
>> Keyboard: depends on Back button to continue
>> Installation Source: depends on Back button to continue
>> Network Configuration: depends on Back button to continue
>> Software Selection: depends on Back button to continue
>> Installation Destination: has a Continue button
>>
>> Seeing as the UI lets me do these things in any order, it seems
>> arbitrary that Storage alone gets a "Continue" button.
>
> Unfortunately, Storage is special. What you need to know is that the Continue button on the storage spoke
> does not move you ahead from the hub. It potentially takes you back to
> the hub, but perhaps first sends you through other screens

Fair enough.

The Back button for all sub-sections needs better location, it took me a while to discover it, as well as the fact it was the only way out of the sub-section I was in. This is a nitpick.

Alternatively, in context of being in these sub-sections, Continue in lieu of Back is not inconsistent with returning to the Installation Summary. This is exactly how the Storage sub-section Continue button works if the user hasn't completed all items in Installation Summary.

Also a nitpick, the Software Selection UI has two halves with different UI. The Desktop selection UI lacks checkboxes for items, the Add-Ons selection has checkboxes for items. The difference in UI resulted in temporary confusion how I was supposed to interact.


>> 3. Despite the condition where I cannot Continue from the
>> Installation Summary, if I go into Installation Destination, the
>> Continue button there is not grayed out. If I click it, and click
>> Continue on the dialog which appears, I'm returned to Installation
>> Summary.
>
> Right, I think this is confusion that the two continue buttons are the
> same when in fact they are not. Again, I don't have any good ideas on
> how to make that situation better.

Understood.


Chris Murphy

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 09:21 PM
Chris Murphy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Aug 17, 2012, at 1:18 PM, John Reiser wrote:

> On 08/17/2012 09:38 AM, MáirĂ*n Duffy wrote:
>
>> You should always back up your data before running an installer,
>> especially one that's under heavy development.
>
> The point is that the installer looked for LVM2, raid, multi-path, etc.,
> and did not find any. Please tell me so explicitly, so that
> *I* can avoid perception mistakes (not seeing what I'm not expecting
> even though it's there, …)

I disagree. The issue is only arising due to lack of trust because this is a new UI, and all of its guts are likewise new and totally suspect. I think as alpha testers we need to know precisely what hardware we have, and its on-disk condition. If LVM or RAID are known to be present but the installer doesn't inform us, *that* is a legitimate complaint.

What we should get to is trust that if it doesn't find these things, they are not to be found. It could be an open question how quickly this trust is gained. But to build UI that confirms negative discovery is almost certainly unnecessary work.

Also legitimate is if the installer UI causes ambiguity in destination identification/selection. Not good for the reasons you mention. Another reason why I'd like to see partition/volume names (or labels, whatever they're called) if present. This is immediately and clearly discoverable information most of the time for users, especially in the very common case of dual-boot installations along side Windows (or Mac OS).


Chris Murphy

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 
Old 08-17-2012, 09:23 PM
Chris Murphy
 
Default expectations for Fedora 18-Alpha-TC3

On Aug 17, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Máirín Duffy wrote:

> On Fri, 2012-08-17 at 12:45 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> 1.
>> Installation Summary: has a Continue button
>> Date & Time: depends on Back button to continue
>> Language: depends on Back button to continue
>> Keyboard: depends on Back button to continue
>> Installation Source: depends on Back button to continue
>> Network Configuration: depends on Back button to continue
>> Software Selection: depends on Back button to continue
>> Installation Destination: has a Continue button
>>
>> Seeing as the UI lets me do these things in any order, it seems arbitrary that Storage alone gets a "Continue" button.
>
> Storage is more than one step. The other dialogs aren't. Storage is by
> far the most complex section. So it's not arbitrary.

Fine.

>
>> 2. If all Installation Summary items are complete, lacking an orange
>> triangle warning, I can "Continue" from the installation summary page.
>> However, if I merely enter Installation Source, make no changes, and
>> click "Back," now "Software Selection" inexplicably has an orange
>> triangle next to it, and I can no longer "Continue" from the
>> installation summary page, as the Continue button is grayed out.
>
> That sounds like a bug if you didn't make any changes.

Bug. No changes made.


>
>> 3. Despite the condition where I cannot Continue from the Installation
>> Summary, if I go into Installation Destination, the Continue button
>> there is not grayed out. If I click it, and click Continue on the
>> dialog which appears, I'm returned to Installation Summary.
>
> Are you confused because the storage section has a continue that isn't
> the same as the installation summary's continue?
>
> The installation summary's continue was labeled 'continue with install'
> http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Projects/Anaconda/Prototypes/Previews/hub-mock_15jun.1.png
>
> Is that not the case now?

No. It merely is labeled "Continue"


Chris Murphy

_______________________________________________
Anaconda-devel-list mailing list
Anaconda-devel-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/anaconda-devel-list
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 05:43 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org