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Old 08-16-2012, 04:48 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Aug 16, 2012 5:50 PM, "Calvin Morrison" <mutantturkey@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 16 August 2012 11:47, Anthony 'Ishpeck' Tedjamulia
> <archlinux@ishpeck.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 03:15:36PM +0200, Thomas B?chler wrote:
> >> > That's not more pragmatic,
> >>
> >> It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any
longer.
> >
> > You seem to be conflating pragmatism with bigotry.
> >
> > Those of us who are used to the internet don't get annoyed
> > by other peoples' silliness.
> >
>
> This is sort of how I feel about Tom and other who have gotten very
> upset and taken leave of the list.
>
> http://xkcd.com/386/

Spot on :-)
 
Old 08-16-2012, 05:01 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02:57PM +0200, fredbezies wrote:
> > Last threads on systemd was useless.
>
> I disagree. In the last thread, I had to really dig for outside information to understand both sides of the argument. My research and tinkering has lead me to the following valuable conclusions:
>
> Init scripts are wrong.
>
> Sure, you can say they're adequate, that things start-up as you want them to. But that's not the same as them being right. They're gratuitously stateful, they leave you with a lot of uncertain state (can has idempotence?), they are large amounts of delicate code that only provide the illusion of stability because they've been so prolific and so heartily tested by a bounteous supply of users.
>
> systemd is also wrong.
>
> Pretty much, all anybody can say about systemd is that it isn't init scripts. This much is certainly true. It still does unnecessary parsing (place for bugs to lurk), it is highly coupled (having dependency on outside software including the kernel), and it goes to unnecessary lengths to nurture sloppy daemon developers.
>
> The arch dev's are making the right call.
>
> They can't maintain a fork of all the software that's going to be coupled to systemd. We're going to have to accept it sooner or later. systemd isn't really any better but I'm unsure if it's any worse. It's okay if we move the bugs into a place that upstream is more inclined to look at and fix.
>

I certainly can't disagree with Toms opinion for Arch having an easier
life.

Hopefully any decent software will maintain compatibility with systemd
less systems as systemd is intended to be only compatible with Linux
and is completely incompatible with the deeply embedded Linux systems
which are gaining momentum and often only have vfork and little memory
or time to read it often requiring minimised libc and shells. I'm quite
confident that compatibility will persist to a similar level as BSD is
so heavily used by ISP and academic institutions and even NASA and
Gnome3 going Linux only came to it's senses eventually.

When systemd is brought up again I think these links from arguments
between redhat developers will be good to further sum up and keep this
list quieter.

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152635.html

http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152636.html



--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-16-2012, 07:19 PM
Heiko Baums
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Am Fri, 17 Aug 2012 01:56:57 +1000
schrieb Gaetan Bisson <bisson@archlinux.org>:

> Why would any of us care about your personal life?
>
> ...
>
> Your head must be such as mess if you can make sense of the above...
>
> ...
>
> Do either. And when you have five seconds please reflect on why none
> of us would read your blog...
>
> ...
>
> Our mistake is to read your messages.

And you know what you have written? Have you really read my e-mail? I
don't think so. I would say, everything you told me outright you should
better tell yourself. Honestly I really can't understand what you are
referring to, and what you want to tell me.

Where have I written anything about my personal life?

But never mind. I really don't care.

Oh, sorry. I forgot. I shouldn't feed the trolls.

Heiko
 
Old 08-16-2012, 08:15 PM
Lucas Saliés Brum
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

2012/8/16 Tobias Frilling <tobias@frilling-online.de>

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> Hash: SHA1
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> I think we all forgot the most fundamental rule in dealing with trolls:
>
> Do *not* feed the trolls!
>
> If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter
> how
> wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're
> just
> wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the
> sake
> of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave.
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+1
 
Old 08-16-2012, 08:26 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Tom Rand <tom@tomsbox.co.uk> wrote:

> look at the end of the day this is a place for archlinux support &
> discussions with dev's, this is why there are policies for this & other forms of
> communication with the dev's & users.
> it is not about free speach or whether this is authoritarian
> it is about what this place has become due to people forcing arguments which become
> flame & troll fest's & get further away from policies to the point where the dev's
> unsubscribe!

I'm sure Vladimir Putin would say cracking on dissent is not about
authoritarianism, but maintaining a level of civility (or whatever
excuse he comes up with).

The fact of the matter is that it's irrelevant what you say banning is
all about; it's still authoritarianism. You can argue about the
benefits of authoritarianism all day long, but it's still
authoritarianism.

> all i see here recently are rants on rants which really should be taken else where.

Ignore them. Again, that's what people do on LKML, and guess what: it works.

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-16-2012, 08:27 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Sander Jansen <s.jansen@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not exactly rocket science. Other forums and mailing lists have
> moderators and rules.

The alternative is not rocket science either; ignore the threads you
don't care about. And other mailing lists do that as well (e.g. LKML).

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-16-2012, 08:29 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 6:47 PM, Tobias Frilling
<tobias@frilling-online.de> wrote:

> I think we all forgot the most fundamental rule in dealing with trolls:
>
> Do *not* feed the trolls!
>
> If you found someone guilty of being a troll, don't argue. Doesn't matter how
> wrong he is or how stupid his opinions, he won't change his mind; you're just
> wasting your time and energy. If someone just posts something just for the sake
> of flaming and spreading FUD but no one is reacting, he's going to leave.

Yeah, if you follow rules like that there's no need for banning; just
ignore the post you think are spam, or trolling, or boring, or
whatever.

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-17-2012, 05:23 AM
gt
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 05:28:03PM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200
> schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
>
> > This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
> > topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state
> > your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
>
> And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for
> the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good
> reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like,
> "personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical"
> ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this
> will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or
> later.
>
> Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs
> and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to
> say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can
> think about that before probably doing a mistake?

I agree. Posting on a blog doesn't get you the intended audience, unless
it's a well known one. All you'll get is crawlers and spammers.

I enjoy all the discussions on this list, and value the opinion of all
users, and if there's someone/something I don't like, I just ignore
that. As simple as that.


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Dear Thufir<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2012/8/17 Thufir <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hawat.thufir@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">hawat=
.thufir@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
There won't be dbmail-3 i386 packages: <a href=3D"http://article.gmane.=
org/gmane.mail.imap.dbmail/14365" target=3D"_blank">http://article.gmane.or=
g/gmane.mail.imap.dbmail/14365</a><br>
<br>
however, I'm not clear what system I'm using:<br></blockquote><div>=
<br>To find out your system/processing type give the following command in t=
erminal --<br><br><b><i>uname -a</i></b><br><br>Your will find your system =
type and the processor type also.<br>
<br>With regards<br>-- <br></div></div>=E0=A6=B0=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=82/ring<br>=
+8801671411437<br><br>=E0=A6=AE=E0=A6=B9=E0=A6=BE= E0=A6=B8=E0=A6=9A=E0=A6=
=BF=E0=A6=AC/General Secretary<br>=E0=A6=AB=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=89=E0=A6=A8= E0=
=A7=8D=E0=A6=A1=E0=A7=87=E0=A6=B6=E0=A6=A8 =E0=A6=AB=E0=A6=B0 =E0=A6=93=E0=
=A6=AA=E0=A7=87=E0=A6=A8 =E0=A6=B8=E0=A7=8B=E0=A6=B0=E0=A7=8D=E0=A6=B8 =E0=
=A6=B8=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BF=E0=A6=89=E0=A6=B6=E0=A6=A 8=E0=A6=B8 =E0=A6=AC=E0=
=A6=BE=E0=A6=82=E0=A6=B2=E0=A6=BE=E0=A6=A6=E0=A7=8 7=E0=A6=B6/Foundation for=
Open Source Solutions Bangladesh<br>

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Old 08-17-2012, 05:52 AM
Justin Strickland
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 10:53:35AM +0530, gt wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 05:28:03PM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote:
> > Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:53 +0200
> > schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
> >
> > > This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
> > > topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state
> > > your _opinion_, get yourself a blog.
> >
> > And if this opinion is about something going on (for the better or for
> > the worse) in Arch Linux? If I have concerns about systemd for good
> > reasons, even if they are not "technical" but, say if you like,
> > "personal"? Well, the "personal" concerns can easily become "technical"
> > ones sooner or later. See PA. Blaming ALSA for PA's bugs. What if this
> > will happen with systemd, too? And I bet this will happen sooner or
> > later.
> >
> > Shall I really shut up or open my own blog, which the Arch devs, TUs
> > and other users for sure won't know or read? Or would it be better to
> > say my opinion on this "technical" mailing list, so that people can
> > think about that before probably doing a mistake?
>
> I agree. Posting on a blog doesn't get you the intended audience, unless
> it's a well known one. All you'll get is crawlers and spammers.
>
> I enjoy all the discussions on this list, and value the opinion of all
> users, and if there's someone/something I don't like, I just ignore
> that. As simple as that.
heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it, I suppose the devs could lay down the law and just be like 'this is what arch is going to ship with and this is what we are going to support get over it!' then maybe this'll die down. but thats just my 2 cents. I'm like you I don't really care what everyone else thinks whats gonna happen is gonna happen whether certain users like it or not, the final decision is up to the people who develop and maintain arch if they deem something should go or something could goand it would make their job even the slightest bit easier on them, who are we to complain, I mean I've taken a look at the effort it takes to build a distro and let me tell you its not easy making 100's(possibly 1000's) of things to work and play nicely together.
 
Old 08-17-2012, 12:13 PM
Anthony 'Ishpeck' Tedjamulia
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Fri, Aug 17, 2012 at 01:52:05AM -0400, Justin Strickland wrote:
> heh seems most of this blaze has to do with users who are unfamiliar with systemd and by convention afraid of it

I've seen a couple of people for whom this is probably true.

But I have seen a couple of posts that seem more educated on the matter.

I have to use systemd every day at work. I use it next to several other
startup systems which are far worse (including init scripts).

It is my use of systemd that causes me to hate it.
 

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