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Old 08-16-2012, 01:17 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
> Am 16.08.2012 15:08, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>> Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
>>>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
>>>>> and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
>>>>> people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
>>>>> mailing list, and the community too.
>>>>
>>>> Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
>>>> have an option to mute a thread.
>>>
>>> I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
>>> list to make it quiet again.
>>
>> That's not more pragmatic,
>
> It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.
>
>> that's more authoritarian, but whatever
>> floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
>> the way.
>
> I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
> nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
> been the last few days.

That's authoritarian.

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:19 PM
Vytautas Stankevičius
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
<felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
>> nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
>> been the last few days.
>
> That's authoritarian.

But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.

Regards,
 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:23 PM
Calvin Morrison
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On 16 August 2012 09:19, Vytautas Stankevičius <brotheris@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
> <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>> I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
>>> nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
>>> been the last few days.
>>
>> That's authoritarian.
>
> But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
>
> Regards,

Right, but waving a ban hammer around makes it not a fun place to be.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:29 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Vytautas Stankevičius
<brotheris@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
> <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>> I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
>>> nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
>>> been the last few days.
>>
>> That's authoritarian.
>
> But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.

The authoritarianism is what makes it a privilege. If there was
freedom of speech like in LKML, then it would be a right (kinda).

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:42 PM
Tom Rand
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 03:29:32PM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Vytautas Stankevičius
> <brotheris@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 4:17 PM, Felipe Contreras
> > <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >>> I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
> >>> nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
> >>> been the last few days.
> >>
> >> That's authoritarian.
> >
> > But it is a privilege to post here, not a right. So it is different.
>
> The authoritarianism is what makes it a privilege. If there was
> freedom of speech like in LKML, then it would be a right (kinda).
>
> --
> Felipe Contreras

look at the end of the day this is a place for archlinux support &
discussions with dev's, this is why there are policies for this & other forms of
communication with the dev's & users.
it is not about free speach or whether this is authoritarian
it is about what this place has become due to people forcing arguments which become
flame & troll fest's & get further away from policies to the point where the dev's
unsubscribe!


When that happens the ML begins to fail because of the actions of a few.

I joined this ML in an attempt to give back to the commuinity some of the small
knowledge i have by way of helping others with basic issue's they have, but the
people i have turned on to Arch have seen this here & have stated they wont bother
with the ML as it appears to be just flame wars!!!!!!!!!!!

Whether you feel your argument was justified or not is mute when a support channel
becomes a troll & flamme fest hence why the dev's left.

all i see here recently are rants on rants which really should be taken else where.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 02:57 PM
Heiko Baums
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200
schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:

> So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
> remove the offending posts.
>
> The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
> spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
> solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we
> will have no choice.

And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs
from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot
of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently
screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being
trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because
those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.

If you want to ban one of them you should ban both of them.

Of course, this thread is very long. Of course, there's a lot of
off-topic in this thread. Of course, there are a lot of pointless and
silly e-mails in this thread. Nevertheless there are a lot of
interesting and helpful information in this thread. And I think
everybody has a right to say his opinion, even if he doesn't have a
detailed, technical "proof" of his opinion. And if people can't bear
other people's opinions they should think about themselves and not ban
the others.

Btw., there have been some other long threads on this mailing list as
well as on other mailing lists. All of those threads eventually came to
an end. And I'm pretty sure that this will be the case with this
thread, too.

Heiko
 
Old 08-16-2012, 03:01 PM
Anthony 'Ishpeck' Tedjamulia
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02:57PM +0200, fredbezies wrote:
> Last threads on systemd was useless.

I disagree. In the last thread, I had to really dig for outside information to understand both sides of the argument. My research and tinkering has lead me to the following valuable conclusions:

Init scripts are wrong.

Sure, you can say they're adequate, that things start-up as you want them to. But that's not the same as them being right. They're gratuitously stateful, they leave you with a lot of uncertain state (can has idempotence?), they are large amounts of delicate code that only provide the illusion of stability because they've been so prolific and so heartily tested by a bounteous supply of users.

systemd is also wrong.

Pretty much, all anybody can say about systemd is that it isn't init scripts. This much is certainly true. It still does unnecessary parsing (place for bugs to lurk), it is highly coupled (having dependency on outside software including the kernel), and it goes to unnecessary lengths to nurture sloppy daemon developers.

The arch dev's are making the right call.

They can't maintain a fork of all the software that's going to be coupled to systemd. We're going to have to accept it sooner or later. systemd isn't really any better but I'm unsure if it's any worse. It's okay if we move the bugs into a place that upstream is more inclined to look at and fix.

I know you guys can't be convinced to use daemontools and I'm not sure if you should at this point. Making the right decision is therefore not an option. You should just go with the wrong decision that's easiest for the movers-and-shakers to live with.

I got all this from reading the several monster threads.

Arch-general seems to be working for me.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 03:08 PM
Sander Jansen
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200
> schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
>
>> So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
>> remove the offending posts.
>>
>> The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
>> spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
>> solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we
>> will have no choice.
>
> And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs
> from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot
> of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently
> screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being
> trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because
> those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.
>
> If you want to ban one of them you should ban both of them.
>

It's not exactly rocket science. Other forums and mailing lists have
moderators and rules. You can even have a team of mods, if you don't
trust the one person to decide whether to (temporary) ban or not. Arch
has decided the forum needs mods... why shouldn't the mailing list?

Cheers,

Sander
 
Old 08-16-2012, 03:08 PM
Thomas Bächler
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Am 16.08.2012 16:57, schrieb Heiko Baums:
> Am Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:22:58 +0200
> schrieb Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org>:
>
>> So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
>> remove the offending posts.
>>
>> The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
>> spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
>> solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we
>> will have no choice.
>
> And how do you decide whom to ban? Just because his opinion differs
> from yours? No personal offend. But there are or have been quite a lot
> of people here - I would even say, most of the people who are currently
> screaming the loudest - who are calling other people troll, while being
> trolls themselves, and shout for banning those people just because
> those people have different opinions and they can't bear other opinions.

I am not planning to start banning people, at least I don't want to. I
am simply stating that it is an option that will be considered and that
client-side filtering is not an acceptable solution.

I am hoping that the threat of being banned will make people shut up for
a day and calm down, then continue discussing normally and calmly.

> And I think
> everybody has a right to say his opinion, even if he doesn't have a
> detailed, technical "proof" of his opinion.

This is a technical mailing list. If you want to discuss technical
topics about Arch, you're in the right place. If you want to state your
_opinion_, get yourself a blog.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 03:15 PM
C Anthony Risinger
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Felipe Contreras
<felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
>>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
>>>> and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
>>>> people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
>>>> mailing list, and the community too.
>>>
>>> Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
>>> have an option to mute a thread.
>>
>> I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
>> list to make it quiet again.
>
> That's not more pragmatic, that's more authoritarian, but whatever
> floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
> the way.

dude, if i wielded the mighty banhammer, you'd have already been axed
days ago! along with you're hoodlum friends! ;-)

i don't think we are really talking about "we don't like yer type
round here" perm bans ... more like "friendly neighborhood" temp ban
(because we care!) to improve the responsibility, and above all,
accountability, of incoming messages. if not a temp ban, the
heuristics to rate-limit people or something ...

i wish mailing lists had a sort of "mob auth" where you could "motion"
for some action ... i mean, yeah, i could kill-file-or-what-have-you
... but like any other problem, they are better solved at the source.

--

C Anthony
 

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