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Old 08-16-2012, 07:49 AM
Jeremiah Dodds
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Thomas Rand <tom@tomsbox.co.uk> writes:

> On 16 August 2012 08:54, Jeremiah Dodds <jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
>> B: If it's noise to you, kill or filter out the threads in your
>> reader.
>
> how about the OP takes his argument to another place considering they
> are off topic & here to insight argument. The only on topic part was
> that systemd is coming to arch the rest is pointless noise which
> itself should have been else where.

That's the thing, other people are obviously not in agreeance with you
about the threads being off-topic. Some people do agree. The ones that
do are free to never have to see a systemd thread again, or never see a
thread started by a person they think is only here to incite argument
again, with minor configuration of any news reader worth it's salt.

With "-general" MLs, I don't really see the point of censorship of
anything that isn't blatant spam, which the systemd threads are not. I
particularly don't see the point when it's generally trivial for people
who are bothered by some thread or some offer to hide them.

You are not the arbiter of "pointless noise" for this list. Neither am
I. I'm the arbiter of "pointless noise" for what I read, and I'm more
than capable of ensuring that I don't read "pointless noise" -- so are
you. The list should not bend to the whim of accusations of noise, the
filters and killfiles of the accuser should.

--
Jeremiah Dodds

blog : http://jdodds.github.com
github : https://github.com/jdodds
freenode : exhortatory
twitter : kaens
 
Old 08-16-2012, 09:19 AM
Oon-Ee Ng
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Jeremiah Dodds
<jeremiah.dodds@gmail.com> wrote:
> With "-general" MLs, I don't really see the point of censorship of
> anything that isn't blatant spam, which the systemd threads are not. I
> particularly don't see the point when it's generally trivial for people
> who are bothered by some thread or some offer to hide them.

The ML is unmoderated, in its current form. And 'trivial to hide' is
of course true.

> You are not the arbiter of "pointless noise" for this list. Neither am
> I. I'm the arbiter of "pointless noise" for what I read, and I'm more
> than capable of ensuring that I don't read "pointless noise" -- so are
> you. The list should not bend to the whim of accusations of noise, the
> filters and killfiles of the accuser should.

While this is also true, the practical effect of it is exactly what is
happening. Lots of pointless noise which is chasing away devs. Each
dev is the arbiter of what constitutes pointless noise for them, and
they're deciding. Philosophical platitudes about how everyone should
only post and read what they want are pointless in light of that.

For me, [arch-general] loses its point if its just a lot of rabble
talking to each other. That's the net effect of what's been going on
this past week, because most of those with a clue don't have the
patience for all this spam. Congratulations to the trolls on the
effect they've had.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 10:13 AM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

> Congratulations to the trolls on the
> effect they've had.

Except I would see some of your posts as trolling and I'm sure you
would see some of mine as trolling too.

I have tried not to but have re-iterated some things when I have felt
that blatant inaccuracies have come along and I am sorry for that as it
simply exacerbates the problem.

It's not like controversial software comes up every day, though it seems
to be getting more frequent, I guess due to it being easier to develop
programs with less experience. Systemd has outpoured twice since I've
been here and apparently before I used arch so let's remember that and
simply provide a link to past threads or a 'please google' when anything
comes up on those subjects.

A consolation. I guess many of us are reasonably well informed on the
subject.

--
__________________________________________________ _____________________

'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work
together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a
universal interface'

(Doug McIlroy)
__________________________________________________ _____________________
 
Old 08-16-2012, 12:14 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
> and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
> people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
> mailing list, and the community too.

Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
have an option to mute a thread.

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-16-2012, 12:19 PM
Thomas Bächler
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
>> and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
>> people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
>> mailing list, and the community too.
>
> Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
> have an option to mute a thread.

I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
list to make it quiet again.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 12:22 PM
Thomas Bächler
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Am 16.08.2012 08:10, schrieb Dennis Herbrich:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 12:53:02AM -0400, Jeremiah Dodds wrote:
>> As far as ML noise goes, that's what killfiles and client-side filters
>> are for, no? People can (or at least should be able to) configure their
>> mailreaders to mute people or topics they want to mute.
>
> This. This so very much.
>
> We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or
> adjust your scorefile/junk filter, and enjoy a quiet evening in your very own
> bubble of comfortable reality without dissenting opinions!

So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.

The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will
have no choice.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 12:26 PM
Mihamina Rakotomandimby
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On 08/16/2012 03:22 PM, Thomas Bächler wrote:

We're all consenting adults here. Just hit that delete button, ESC-d, Del or
adjust your scorefile/junk filter

So you're saying that instead of fixing the problem, every user should
remove the offending posts.


Further,
Clever people always have a look at the "community" when choosing a project.

For example, before installing a distribution I take care of the support
community:

- are there MLs?
- how crowded (quantity & quality)?
- ...

Filtering end-user-side will keep the crap archived.
Banning will avoid archiving of junk content.

Please, consider baning rather than advising filters.

Cheers.

--
RMA.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 12:32 PM
Calvin Morrison
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

> The problem here are a small handful of people who start flames and
> spread FUD. Banning a handful of people from the list is an easier
> solution IMO. I am generally against such measures, but it seems we will
> have no choice.
>

Can we please make the difference between flaming and trolling shown?
I think it is clear that all of the people arguing against systemd are
1. On topic 2. No disrupting any normal conversation (it's not like
they are preventing regular stuff going on. 3. very concerned with
systemd being put in place. 4. sometimes saying very inflammatory
statements (but so do people who support systemd)


This ML is a great place to discuss stuff, I'd like to keep it that
way. Trolling is much more malicious and much more intentional. Please
don't accuse people of trolling who are arguing for a real reason.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:08 PM
Felipe Contreras
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
> Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
>>> and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
>>> people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
>>> mailing list, and the community too.
>>
>> Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
>> have an option to mute a thread.
>
> I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
> list to make it quiet again.

That's not more pragmatic, that's more authoritarian, but whatever
floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
the way.

Cheers.

--
Felipe Contreras
 
Old 08-16-2012, 01:15 PM
Thomas Bächler
 
Default Arch-general is becoming a mess !

Am 16.08.2012 15:08, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> Am 16.08.2012 14:14, schrieb Felipe Contreras:
>>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:02 PM, fredbezies <fredbezies@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I'm an old archlinux user (first installation back in december 2008),
>>>> and for a long time, I was very satisfied with arch-general. But some
>>>> people - can we define them as bottom holes ? - are rotting this
>>>> mailing list, and the community too.
>>>
>>> Do what the Linux kernel does: ignore the mails. Most mail clients
>>> have an option to mute a thread.
>>
>> I prefer the more pragmatic approach: Simply ban some people from the
>> list to make it quiet again.
>
> That's not more pragmatic,

It is. Person X is annoying everyone, so person X can't post any longer.

> that's more authoritarian, but whatever
> floats your boat; if you want to squash dissidence, that's certainly
> the way.

I want to squash the noise that has turned this list from a helpful and
nice place to discuss with developers and users into the place it has
been the last few days.
 

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