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Old 08-15-2012, 08:44 PM
David Benfell
 
Default Personal note

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 08/15/2012 12:51 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>
> wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz
>> <karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>
>>>> As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my
>>>> relationship with arch-general.
>>>
>>> What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with
>>> questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement
>>> etc.)?
>>
>> We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question.
>> Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are
>> discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback,
>> and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest.
>>
>> I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone,
>> alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the
>> news item, etc.).
>>
> You know I have been watching this really destructive war of
> attrition on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent
> of the long flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list
> that led me to unsubscribe from the Fedora list and start looking
> at Arch as the distribution for my laptops.
>
And numerous other places. As far as I know, the problem has never
been solved and has laid waste in nearly all of them, with the result
that support has become harder to find.

There is almost always a tension between those who know what they are
doing and those who don't. In my own field, I lose patience with naves
rather quickly, so I'm hardly in a position to lecture anyone about
this. That said, by contrast, there are a few developers out there who
seem gifted at the human relations part of this, are brilliant at the
hand-holding that is sometimes needed, and I think are not so often
recognized. They're also often working on ancillary projects for which
there are easy alternatives rather than core stuff. Distributions,
init, the kernel, even desktop environments I think fall into this
latter category where replacement can mean ripping out a lot of stuff
and building from scratch.

Our (emphasis on the collective) failure to solve this, however, is
debilitating, not only for existing users for whom support is harder
to find, but in terms of attracting future users, not just to Arch but
to the open source community in general.

- --
David Benfell
benfell@parts-unknown.org
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Old 08-15-2012, 09:00 PM
mike cloaked
 
Default Personal note

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:44 PM, David Benfell
<benfell@parts-unknown.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 08/15/2012 12:51 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz
>>> <karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi guys,
>>>>>
>>>>> As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my
>>>>> relationship with arch-general.
>>>>
>>>> What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with
>>>> questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement
>>>> etc.)?
>>>
>>> We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question.
>>> Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are
>>> discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback,
>>> and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest.
>>>
>>> I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone,
>>> alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the
>>> news item, etc.).
>>>
>> You know I have been watching this really destructive war of
>> attrition on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent
>> of the long flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list
>> that led me to unsubscribe from the Fedora list and start looking
>> at Arch as the distribution for my laptops.
>>
> And numerous other places. As far as I know, the problem has never
> been solved and has laid waste in nearly all of them, with the result
> that support has become harder to find.
>
> There is almost always a tension between those who know what they are
> doing and those who don't. In my own field, I lose patience with naves
> rather quickly, so I'm hardly in a position to lecture anyone about
> this. That said, by contrast, there are a few developers out there who
> seem gifted at the human relations part of this, are brilliant at the
> hand-holding that is sometimes needed, and I think are not so often
> recognized. They're also often working on ancillary projects for which
> there are easy alternatives rather than core stuff. Distributions,
> init, the kernel, even desktop environments I think fall into this
> latter category where replacement can mean ripping out a lot of stuff
> and building from scratch.
>
> Our (emphasis on the collective) failure to solve this, however, is
> debilitating, not only for existing users for whom support is harder
> to find, but in terms of attracting future users, not just to Arch but
> to the open source community in general.
>

Yes - sadly there are no winners in a war of attrition - and everyone
loses - the good guys get blown away along with the tide of
destruction which is so sad. It would be so much better if everyone
really thought carefully about trying to contribute positively, and
not negatively and destructively - people are much more likely to
listen to reasoned argument and feel more likely they can add to the
positive ideas being discussed.

When it gets personal then that is usually the beginning of the
end-game - it is pointless and you get the cycle of tornado damage -
especially in such a public domain as a mailing list.

The real shame is how it takes so few to create such a disaster - I
hope that everyone who has contributed to this debacle will think
carefully about what they have done - and I also hope that any key
contributors who have felt at wit's end and want out, will be able to
take time to let calm return so that they may be able to come back and
feel that their contributions are valued - there is a huge silent
majority who value hugely what the developers have created
collectively and individually to make our system the capable and
functional system that we run every day on our systems.

I live in hope for an improved atmosphere on this list after a night's
sleep and more settled thoughts.

--
mike c
 
Old 08-15-2012, 09:50 PM
Genes MailLists
 
Default Personal note

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no> wrote:

...


As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship
with arch-general.




Tom please stay engaged with user community. May I suggest instead
the creation of a new list (something like):


arch-users-technical

with very, very low tolerance for non-technical (flame) posts -
simply ban anyone who violates the rules.


I try to help where I can - such as testing the things in testing
repo and trying to keep up to date with LKML and sharing tidbits where
relevant (e.g. iproute2 fix).


Let's leave arch-general as therapeutic outlet for the flamers. Or,
alternatively, just leave arch-general - and adjust as above (banning
those who engage in inappropriate posts).




On 08/15/2012 03:51 PM, mike cloaked wrote:

> ...

on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent of the long
flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list that led me to


I too left fedora no too long ago to join the Arch family (was a user
since Red Hat 3) and truly enjoy the calm, technical, polite and focused
discussions on arch.


The Rolling release model is near perfect ... and Arch people are
truly knowledgeable and friendly. And, with some small exceptions,
polite and helpful.



I am slowly moving all my installs to Arch ...


You guys are great - don't let the small number of noisy ones destroy it.

Gene

P.S. I cc'd you directly Tom, in you have already left arch-general -
hope that's ok.
 
Old 08-15-2012, 11:00 PM
Anthony 'Ishpeck' Tedjamulia
 
Default Personal note

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 01:44:07PM -0700, David Benfell wrote:
> There is almost always a tension between those who know what they are
> doing and those who don't.

There is also conflict between people who simply have different values.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 03:37 AM
Shridhar Daithankar
 
Default Personal note

On Wednesday 15 Aug 2012 7:27:29 PM Tom Gundersen wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship
> with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so
> sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about
> how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not).
>
> My approach to arch-general used to be:
>
> 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to "my" corner of
> the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I
> could.
> 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same.
>
> I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will:
>
> 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report
> anything to the bug tracker.
> 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless
> speculations and not engage with it any longer.
>
> This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think
> my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than
> increases the current abysmal quality of discussion.

Pl. stay around. Accessible developers is a huge plus of arch community and it
is really sad to see it recede.

Ignore discussions/part-of-discussions that no longer stay technical but pl.
don't leave.

Your contributions are very valuable. For every vocal annoyance, there are a
thousand happy and thankful users, even though they don't make their presence
known.
--
Regards
Shridhar
 
Old 08-16-2012, 04:10 AM
phani
 
Default Personal note

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 23:28:49 +0530, Aurko Roy <roy.aurko@gmail.com> wrote:


Sorry to see you go. Although I don't post much here I do read and
appreciate your prompt and very informative responses to the various
issues that are on arch-general. If this is because of the recent
flame-wars over systemd, couldn't you just ignore (filter out) those
messages and concentrate on real, technical issues that are
(occasionally) posted here?



perhaps that's asking too much from those who already dedicate a large
part of their time to maintain & develop this distro.


this seems to be a universal problem: either you have an open mailing
list, allowing newcomers and outsiders easy (write-) access, or you
moderate, improving the signal-to-noise ratio, but stiffling the
discussion and creating new problems, i.e., policies and their
implementation will lead to their own flame wars.


somewhere the creation of a new mailing list was proposed, but as i've
seen at openSUSE, this creates another set of problems: fragmentation. in
many cases it isn't clear which would be the appropriate list, resulting
in cross-posting, and the need to subscribe to another bunch of lists just
to stay informed.


in this case, arch general becoming too noisy, i would suggest a different
solution:


create another (non-public) mailing list only for devs/maintainers, to
which some old hands from arch general forward everything that's relevant,
but keep the noise and newbee questions out.


the filtering process and that new list shouldn't be public, avoiding
endless discussions. fine-tuning of what to forward and what not could
easily be dealt with by those 'old hands' and the devs in private.


this way the developers wouldn't be cut off from all the feedback, and i'm
pretty sure there's a few old archers around who wouldn't mind the extra
effort. i would volunteer for that, but i'm very new to arch linux and
this mailing list, having come from openSUSE a few months ago.




Thank you for your contributions.


+1

thanks a lot for this great distro!

--
phani.
 
Old 08-16-2012, 05:20 AM
Martin Cigorraga
 
Default Personal note

Baho: it's sad to see you leave pal but in the future try to not let things
bring you down so easily, the world is full of suckers and the sooner you
learn to live with that the better.
Tom: I will miss your answers, they were often very useful and make help
understand a bit more the inner workings of Arch and GNU/Linux in general.

As proposed above I too am in favor of a new arch-users-technical list with
little to no tolerance at all to flaming, ranting and general dick size
wars, +1 to it.
As for this list and if most of the devs and savvy guys are already
unsubscribed it should be observed how it behaves in next few days or weeks
and if it becomes irrelevant _close_ it. The best thing about this list was
it's superior technical discussions over the forums but should arch-general
become watered I don't see a real need to keep it running...

Yes, I know there are some people that follows mailing lists and never put
a step on the forums but hey, the forum aren't too ackward if you're
subscribed to the different threads.

Regards,
Martin

--
-msx
 
Old 08-16-2012, 06:04 AM
Thomas Rand
 
Default Personal note

On 16 August 2012 07:20, Martin Cigorraga <msx@archlinux.us> wrote:
> Baho: it's sad to see you leave pal but in the future try to not let things
> bring you down so easily, the world is full of suckers and the sooner you
> learn to live with that the better.
> Tom: I will miss your answers, they were often very useful and make help
> understand a bit more the inner workings of Arch and GNU/Linux in general.
>
> As proposed above I too am in favor of a new arch-users-technical list with
> little to no tolerance at all to flaming, ranting and general dick size
> wars, +1 to it.
> As for this list and if most of the devs and savvy guys are already
> unsubscribed it should be observed how it behaves in next few days or weeks
> and if it becomes irrelevant _close_ it. The best thing about this list was
> it's superior technical discussions over the forums but should arch-general
> become watered I don't see a real need to keep it running...
>
> Yes, I know there are some people that follows mailing lists and never put
> a step on the forums but hey, the forum aren't too ackward if you're
> subscribed to the different threads.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> --
> -msx

Hey Tom,

sad to see you take this stance but I can understand, I am considering
unsubscribing from this too as the noise about certain things is
getting to me & I wonder how this list is going to continue to
function as a portal for general support of arch linux.

As i said in a different thread it is all beginning to sound like the
south park crowd scene:
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble
rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble


shame they do not stick to the policy of the list's

--
Regards
Tom Rand
 
Old 08-16-2012, 07:45 AM
"G. Schlisio"
 
Default Personal note

Am 15.08.2012 21:43, schrieb Tom Gundersen:

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz
<karol.blazewicz@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no> wrote:

Hi guys,

As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship
with arch-general.

What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions
or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)?

We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question.
Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are
discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and
there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest.

I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone,
alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news
item, etc.).

-t

what about cleaning arch-general by creating a new list (arch-offtopic,
arch-flame etc) and moving those diskussion there

just a spontaneous idea
 
Old 08-16-2012, 08:35 AM
Vytautas Stankevičius
 
Default Personal note

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:45 AM, G. Schlisio <g.schlisio@gmx.de> wrote:
> Am 15.08.2012 21:43, schrieb Tom Gundersen:
>>
>> We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question.
>> Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are
>> discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and
>> there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest.
>>
>> I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone,
>> alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news
>> item, etc.).
>>
>> -t
>>
> what about cleaning arch-general by creating a new list (arch-offtopic,
> arch-flame etc) and moving those diskussion there
> just a spontaneous idea

Why go through all this trouble creating new lists? Issue a warning
when discussion goes nowhere, mute few selected people from "both
sides" for a week and that's it. I believe this was done before?

Bitching about bitching just creates more noise.

Regards,
 

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