On Aug 10, 2012 6:32 PM, "Leonid Isaev" <lisaev@umail.iu.edu> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:04:39 +0200
> Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 10, 2012 5:59 PM, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>
wrote:
> > > As already reported, both, the version from the repositories + this
> > > patched version works with the NM applet on my Xfce, unfortunately the
> > > patched version brakes Thunar.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Tom
>
> Except mounting issues, do I correctly understand that polkit 0.107
enables
> correct seat/session assigment in conjuction with systemd-logind even
without
> a login helper (like {G,K}DM)?
No. That is a separate problem. The patched version will ask logind for
information about the session, but for that to work, a pam session must
have been set up correctly and be registered with logind. For this a login
manager (our an xinit hack) is needed.
Tom
08-10-2012, 08:33 PM
Brandon Watkins
polkit package upgrade patch
Systemd and pulseaudio are completely different pieces of software with
different purposes. Comparing them like that just because of the author is
comparing apples to oranges.
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 3:43 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> Am Fri, 10 Aug 2012 18:27:33 +0200
> schrieb Tom Gundersen <teg@jklm.no>:
>
> > Please guys, not again...
> >
> > Take your concerns upstream, nothing will come off rehashing them
> > here for the hundredths time.
>
> Those concerns have been reported upstream a long while ago. They are
> just ignored resp. upstream doesn't have any better to do than to
> blaming ALSA even if ALSA supports those audio cards perfectly
> out-of-the-box.
>
> Then PA upstream has written an obscure ALSA configuration which
> crippled those cards down to simple stereo cards and closed the bug
> report as fixed even if this is not even a dirty workaround.
>
> Now, after a lot of discussions on several mailing lists, they suddenly
> say that PA is only meant for desktop purposes, but not for
> professional audio. On the other hand they do everything to make it a
> pseudo standard.
>
> And systemd seems to be similar. I also don't like that you want to
> imprint this systemd stuff everybody even if one doesn't have systemd
> installed. See systemd-tools and systemd-cryptsetup. Well, I know that
> you filed the issue about reading the key rawly from a block device to
> upstream. But they did forgot it. What else did they forget? I have the
> impression that Lennart only thinks halfway through and doesn't have
> much knowledge about professional computer and UNIX usage. Maybe his
> ideas have some good aspects, but he simply can't implement it
> professionally and in a UNIX style. He seems to only think about
> desktop users but definitely not about (semi-)professional users.
>
> And run a `ls /usr/lib/systemd/system`. The harddisk is filled up with
> a bunch of systemd stuff which I don't need and don't want to have. But
> I am forced to have at least half of systemd on my harddisk, even if I
> don't want to have systemd.
>
> Just a few concerns which not only belong to upstream.
>
> And, no. The software does not or at least should not ripen at the
> users, at least not so much as it needs to with Poetterix.
>
> Heiko
>
08-10-2012, 09:31 PM
David Benfell
polkit package upgrade patch
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On 08/10/2012 09:02 AM, Baho Utot wrote:
> On 08/10/2012 11:50 AM, Oon-Ee Ng wrote:
>> On 10 Aug 2012 22:52, "Ralf Mardorf" <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>
>> wrote:
>>> . PA until today is pure crap for MOST computer users
>>> (including those who try to switch to Linux), I don't like to
>>> hear again and again, that it does work for most Linux users,
>>> I even DOUBT that very much.
>>>
>> This again? Let's paraphrase:-
<snip>
>>
>> Copy, paste, on all the mailing lists I frequent.
Perhaps the fact that so many people--myself included--have had
problems with PulseAudio that are most easily solved by removing
PulseAudio ought to be taken into consideration. But PulseAudio
evangelists rarely, if ever, respond meaningfully to this point. That
suggests that the attachment to PulseAudio is based in emotion rather
than in reason.
Emotion is a legitimate basis for decisionmaking. But it is also
legitimate for others to choose what works for them.
>>
>> Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds, after a while?
> I don't wish to get into that particular disagreement but......
>
> pulse audio doesn't work for me in the two boxen I have it on. It
> just gets in the way and when it is removed I can set my audio
> just how I want it.
It's interesting that there is so much evangelism for PulseAudio. If
it really worked as advertised, 1) such evangelism would not be
necessary, and 2) the topic might not come up so often.
But what's really interesting is that the topic appears even here on
an Arch mailing list, since Arch--as far as I know--wouldn't foist
PulseAudio on anybody unless they wanted it.
- --
David Benfell
benfell@parts-unknown.org
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On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:43 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
[snip: lots of whining about pulse audio]
This is not the right mailinglist for this issue. And this certainly
is not the right thread for it.
> And systemd seems to be similar. I also don't like that you want to
> imprint this systemd stuff everybody even if one doesn't have systemd
> installed.
You are free to reimplement all those tools and ship a competing
package. The configuration formats are well-documented, so it should
not be hard.
> See systemd-tools and systemd-cryptsetup. Well, I know that
> you filed the issue about reading the key rawly from a block device to
> upstream. But they did forgot it.
What are you talking about? No one forgot anything. This is what
happened: You pointed out a feature that initsrcipts used to have
which systemd-cryptsetup lacked, (on the same day) I posted a patch to
implement the feature you requested, and asked for feedback (which you
didn't give), one week later I posted the patch upstream and (on the
same day) Lennart replied: "Applied." The functionality should now be
part of systemd 188, which is in testing. What more could you possibly
ask for?
> I have the
> impression that Lennart only thinks halfway through and doesn't have
> much knowledge about professional computer and UNIX usage. Maybe his
> ideas have some good aspects, but he simply can't implement it
> professionally and in a UNIX style. He seems to only think about
> desktop users but definitely not about (semi-)professional users.
I have the impression that you don't have a clue what you are talking about.
> And run a `ls /usr/lib/systemd/system`. The harddisk is filled up with
> a bunch of systemd stuff which I don't need and don't want to have. But
> I am forced to have at least half of systemd on my harddisk, even if I
> don't want to have systemd.
Why don't you just delete the things you don't want?
-t
08-10-2012, 10:57 PM
Tom Gundersen
polkit package upgrade patch
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:38 PM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> If you buy a book at Amazon e.g., what do you read? Only the best
> 5-star reviews or also the 1-star reviews? I tell you something. Not
> always but a lot of times the fewer 1-star reviews are the better and
> more realistic ones.
I prefer the reviews (good or bad) from someone who has actually read the book.
-t
08-10-2012, 11:33 PM
"Ralf Mardorf"
polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 00:59:25 +0200, Leonid Isaev <lisaev@umail.iu.edu>
wrote:
Do we always have to get personal?
Seems to me that some people have way too much free time...
And do you think it's a good idea to spam my inbox? Ah, right, I should
unsubscribe.
I don't read reviews because relevant people you should listen to are
too busy to write them.
Yes, everybody who mentions cons about system relevant broken software has
to much time. Perhaps important, relevant people would have more time too,
if they wouldn't use borked, system relevant software .
This kind of argumentation IMO is more near to spam, then to mention again
and again, that pulseaudio is a serious issue and people fear that systemd
will become a serious issue too.
Some people don't have the time to test and brake their Linux, that
doesn't mean that people with enough free time are losers, IMO somebody
who doesn't have enough free time should learn to manage the live better.
I just wonder why a discussion needs to become that personal. Heiko didn't
become personal. Writing about somebody who does hardcore public relations
is something completely different, than defamation of people who might
have too much free time, just because they have another opinion or read
the book reviews of people that aren't that smart, as the people you would
listen too.
Why not simply stopping that discussion, instead of feeding it with such a
defamation?
Ralf
08-11-2012, 12:47 AM
Thanasis Georgiou
polkit package upgrade patch
On Aug 11, 2012 3:11 AM, "Heiko Baums" <lists@
<lists@baums-on-web.de>baums<lists@baums-on-web.de>
-on- <lists@baums-on-web.de>web.de <lists@baums-on-web.de>> wrote:
> Just to mention, you've also written that this patch you've written
> should not be used or tested in stable, productive environments. I only
> have one PC which needs to run stably and reliably. I can't run into
> danger that my data gets accidentally corrupted. And I don't trust
> systemd this much, but I trust my initscripts code. And I hadn't had
> time to set up a VM.
So you had a problem but when Tom wrote a patch you were unwilling to help
test it? The patch that was wrote to specifically address your problem? I
understand you might be low on free time but you are not a costumer.
Someone else fixed then problem you encountered and your response was to
whine. Is this how open source is supposed to work?
Lastly, are the systemd parts initscripts currently use bothering you? How
so? Because they are in a folded called 'systemd'? They seem to work
alright.
--
Thanasis Georgiou
08-11-2012, 01:02 AM
Tom Gundersen
polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:
> I have the impression that you are one of those systemd fanboys, and
> just don't want to hear that systemd and PA have a lot of serious
> issues.
Issues, serious or otherwise, belong in the bug-tracker. We have
surprisingly few systemd/pulseaudio bugs open, considering all the
noise they create on the ML.
>> Why don't you just delete the things you don't want?
>
> Why are those things, which I don't need and want, installed? Why
> am I forced to have this systemd stuff installed? And what, if I delete
> them manually? Shall I always delete them again and again after every
> system update? Sorry, that's not the way to go.
Sorry, I didn't realise you were being serious. Of course you
shouldn't delete them. If you don't use systemd they have no effect,
and take hardly no space.
> Like I said before, if you would support systemd, sytemd-tools and
> everything else related to systemd totally optional, and keep
> initscripts pure initscripts without any systemd stuff like it was
> before, I would say nothing. But since you really force the users to
> install this systemd stuff, you will have to live with such comments,
> and not only from me, as you should know.
I don't force anyone to do anything. If you see flaws in anything I
do, then provide review, patches or bug reports. If you don't like the
direction I'm taking initscripts in, then fork it and provide your
competing version.
To be clear: it has always been my plan to make initscripts and
systemd as close to each other as possible and share as much code as
possible. I strongly believe this is the right thing to do. If you
disagree, then I think your time is better spent at coding a
replacement rather than at whining.
-t
08-11-2012, 06:15 AM
Guus Snijders
polkit package upgrade patch
Op 11 aug. 2012 03:02 schreef "Tom Gundersen" <teg@jklm.no> het volgende:
>
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de>
wrote:
[...]
> > Like I said before, if you would support systemd, sytemd-tools and
> > everything else related to systemd totally optional, and keep
> > initscripts pure initscripts without any systemd stuff like it was
> > before, I would say nothing. But since you really force the users to
> > install this systemd stuff, you will have to live with such comments,
> > and not only from me, as you should know.
It's always funny in this subject how people seem to forget that udev no
longer exists on its own.
Despite the careful annoucements from Arch.
> I don't force anyone to do anything. If you see flaws in anything I
> do, then provide review, patches or bug reports. If you don't like the
> direction I'm taking initscripts in, then fork it and provide your
> competing version.
>
> To be clear: it has always been my plan to make initscripts and
> systemd as close to each other as possible and share as much code as
> possible. I strongly believe this is the right thing to do. If you
> disagree, then I think your time is better spent at coding a
> replacement rather than at whining.
Just for the record Tom: some of us are very happy with your work on
continuening Initscripts.
It sometimes looks as if 'everyone' feels they must switch to pure systemd,
I for one prefer the predictability of init.
Keeper up the good work!
Mvg, Guus
08-11-2012, 07:56 AM
Jelle van der Waa
polkit package upgrade patch
On 10/08/12 23:38, Heiko Baums wrote:
> Am Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:33:39 -0400
> schrieb Brandon Watkins <bwat47@gmail.com>:
>
>> Systemd and pulseaudio are completely different pieces of software
>> with different purposes. Comparing them like that just because of the
>> author is comparing apples to oranges.
>
> Sorry, it is not. I see that PA is totally not complete and doesn't
> support at least half of the professional use cases. And I see that it's
> the same with systemd. So what's the difference?
>
> They are both developed by the same person who seemingly doesn't have
> much knowledge about professional computer usage and only cares about
> some desktop users.
>
> With PA it's currently not such a problem since I don't need to use a
> distro or a desktop environment which forces me to install PA.
>
> With systemd it's worse since the init system is a very serious and
> important piece of the system. And if this doesn't support every
> professional use case and isn't proved to be really reliable, it just
> shouldn't be made to a de facto standard.
>
> And if I can't trust PA how can I trust an even more important piece of
> software written by the same person?
>
> Btw., look at systemd-cryptsetup. Yes, meanwhile my use case is filed
> upstream and allegedly and hopefully fixed. But it shows that at least
> one use case was just forgotten or in other words it was not well
> enough thought out. The latter is the biggest problem.
>
> Like I said before, some of Lennart's ideas may, say, seem to be quite
> interesting, and maybe sysvinit is also not the perfect init system.
> But Lennart's software is just not implemented good enough.
>
> If somebody doesn't care about the professional users when writing on
> software, would he really care about the professional users when
> writing the other software?
Sure soon RHEL will switch to systemd with RHEL 7, so the systemd market
share will probably continue to grow. Also SUSE seems to switch to
systemd. With these major distro's taking up systemd, it's almost
impossible that it's not implemented good enough.
p.s. it's a bit lame to just blame Poettering since for everything he
just iirc the maintainer of systemd. Since there are much more people
behind systemd ( Kay sievers, etc. )
polkit package upgrade patch
.
