On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Karol Babioch <karol@babioch.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm about to set up a new machine and want to make use of systemd.
> Currently I'm reading up on the topic as systemd changes quite a lot of
> things.
>
> Just recently I've realized that ConsoleKit is not maintained actively
> anymore and the focus is on systemd right now (see [1]). This is already
> mentioned in the wiki [2].
>
> Unfortunately I couldn't find any statement as to whether Arch will
> follow along with this. I'm running GNOME right now and at least have
> two dependencies for ConsoleKit: gdm and gnome-session.
>
> I couldn't find anything in regard to this issue in the bug tracker, so
> I'm wondering whether there has been some discussion over that already?
>
> I know there have been some discussions about systemd in the past, but
> are there any definite plans to switch "completely" to systemd at some
> point in the future? It seems that the package "initscripts-systemd" is
> more or less on feature parity with "initscripts" already.
>
> The reason why I'm asking is that I don't think that this kind of
> "double tracked" approach we are currently following, will work very
> well in the long run, especially when systemd is superseding more and
> more other packages.
>
> Don't get me wrong: I'm really glad about the fact that Arch Linux is
> supporting systemd so well. By no means I want to depreciate the work
> you guys have done so far. I do absolutely think that we have to provide
> both solutions in order to provide a smooth upgrade path. But personally
> I think that at some point we have to make a choice - just for the sake
> of simplicity. Personally I would choose systemd .
>
> Best regards,
> Karol Babioch
>
> [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/ConsoleKit/
> [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ConsoleKit

ConsoleKit and systemd's logind don't provide the same API, as far as
I know. So Arch has to wait for the upstreams of these projects (such
as GNOME) to re-implement the relevant functionality with logind
instead of ConsoleKit. It's not just a build-time decision distro
packagers get to make.

On Tue, 2012-07-10 at 19:23 +0200, Karol Babioch wrote:
> I'm wondering whether there has been some discussion over that already?

IIRC not on that List. Some weeks ago I again mentioned that there's an
annoying bug/feature for console-kit on Debian user mailing list.
Somebody informed me about systemd-loginctl as a replacement. I didn't
think about dependency issues, while I ogled to switch to system. There
also was a link to a Fedora list:
"We merged the upstream udev repository entirely into the systemd
repository. There is no standalone upstream udev project anymore.
[snip]"

A lot of dependencies needs to be removed, so I'll wait until Arch,
Debian and Ubuntu completely switched to systemd.

On 07/10/2012 08:37 PM, Ray Kohler wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 1:23 PM, Karol Babioch <karol@babioch.de> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm about to set up a new machine and want to make use of systemd.
>> Currently I'm reading up on the topic as systemd changes quite a lot of
>> things.
>>
>> Just recently I've realized that ConsoleKit is not maintained actively
>> anymore and the focus is on systemd right now (see [1]). This is already
>> mentioned in the wiki [2].
>>
>> Unfortunately I couldn't find any statement as to whether Arch will
>> follow along with this. I'm running GNOME right now and at least have
>> two dependencies for ConsoleKit: gdm and gnome-session.
>>
>> I couldn't find anything in regard to this issue in the bug tracker, so
>> I'm wondering whether there has been some discussion over that already?
>>
>> I know there have been some discussions about systemd in the past, but
>> are there any definite plans to switch "completely" to systemd at some
>> point in the future? It seems that the package "initscripts-systemd" is
>> more or less on feature parity with "initscripts" already.
>>
>> The reason why I'm asking is that I don't think that this kind of
>> "double tracked" approach we are currently following, will work very
>> well in the long run, especially when systemd is superseding more and
>> more other packages.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong: I'm really glad about the fact that Arch Linux is
>> supporting systemd so well. By no means I want to depreciate the work
>> you guys have done so far. I do absolutely think that we have to provide
>> both solutions in order to provide a smooth upgrade path. But personally
>> I think that at some point we have to make a choice - just for the sake
>> of simplicity. Personally I would choose systemd .
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Karol Babioch
>>
>> [1] http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/ConsoleKit/
>> [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ConsoleKit
>
> ConsoleKit and systemd's logind don't provide the same API, as far as
> I know. So Arch has to wait for the upstreams of these projects (such
> as GNOME) to re-implement the relevant functionality with logind
> instead of ConsoleKit. It's not just a build-time decision distro
> packagers get to make.
>

Gnome 3.4 already supports systemd but as well as consolekit. Some
modules have this detection at runtime.

We prefer to keep consolekit support until we cannot support it.

--
IonuÈ›

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 6:23 PM, Karol Babioch <karol@babioch.de> wrote:
> Just recently I've realized that ConsoleKit is not maintained actively
> anymore and the focus is on systemd right now (see [1]). This is already
> mentioned in the wiki [2].
>
> Unfortunately I couldn't find any statement as to whether Arch will
> follow along with this. I'm running GNOME right now and at least have
> two dependencies for ConsoleKit: gdm and gnome-session.

Many packages allow you to chose between systemd and consolekit
support. However, most of them only allow this choice at compile time.
For the time being we are sticking with consolekit, as otherwise the
packages would be useless for people not using systemd (consolekit can
still be used with systemd so the other way around is not a problem).

Hopefully more packages (upstream) will eventually allow both
consolekit and systemd support to be compiled in, and the choice be
made at runtime.

> I couldn't find anything in regard to this issue in the bug tracker, so
> I'm wondering whether there has been some discussion over that already?

I think the current state of affairs is fairly well summed up here:
<https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-April/022803.html>.

> I know there have been some discussions about systemd in the past, but
> are there any definite plans to switch "completely" to systemd at some
> point in the future? It seems that the package "initscripts-systemd" is
> more or less on feature parity with "initscripts" already.
>
> The reason why I'm asking is that I don't think that this kind of
> "double tracked" approach we are currently following, will work very
> well in the long run, especially when systemd is superseding more and
> more other packages.

No decision has been made, or even discussed, regarding wether or not
to switch entirely to systemd. My intention is to keep supporting the
"double track" until either initscripts or systemd dies a natural
death due to lack of testers, but maybe others have other plans. We
will see.

In the meantime I (and others) have put quite some effort into making
sure that the configuration files of systemd and initscripts are
interchangeable. As well as replacing a lot of the initscripts code by
calls to systemd tools. This should make any transition as pain-free
as possible.

The only thing left on my TODO is to rework our crypttab syntax (if
you follow arch-projects I'll post an RFC in the coming days).

Cheers,

Tom

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 7:42 PM, Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>wrote:

> A lot of dependencies needs to be removed, so I'll wait until Arch,
> Debian and Ubuntu completely switched to systemd.
>

Ubuntu has made the point clear that it does not plan to switch to systemd.
Ever.

Anyway, I'm inclined to think that they will, eventually, but that may take
quite a few years.

Personally, I've already made the switch for my desktop, with little actual
pain.

--
Rodrigo

On Tue, Jul 10, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Rodrigo Rivas
<rodrigorivascosta@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ubuntu has made the point clear that it does not plan to switch to systemd.
> Ever.

As I understand it that decision most likely revolved around the
investment they had already made in, and control they have over
upstart.

=-Jameson

Hi,

Am 10.07.2012 19:47, schrieb Tom Gundersen:
> Hopefully more packages (upstream) will eventually allow both
> consolekit and systemd support to be compiled in, and the choice be
> made at runtime.
Ok, makes sense. I can totally live with ConsoleKit for now, just wanted
to make sure that you developer know about these "issues". Kind of
stupid from me to assume that you do not .

> I think the current state of affairs is fairly well summed up here:
> <https://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-dev-public/2012-April/022803.html>.
Thanks. Again, seems to make sense for now.

> No decision has been made, or even discussed, regarding wether or not
> to switch entirely to systemd. My intention is to keep supporting the
> "double track" until either initscripts or systemd dies a natural
> death due to lack of testers, but maybe others have other plans. We
> will see.
Ok.

> In the meantime I (and others) have put quite some effort into making
> sure that the configuration files of systemd and initscripts are
> interchangeable. As well as replacing a lot of the initscripts code by
> calls to systemd tools. This should make any transition as pain-free
> as possible.
Yeah, once again, thanks!

> The only thing left on my TODO is to rework our crypttab syntax (if
> you follow arch-projects I'll post an RFC in the coming days).
I'm following arch-projects now, although I'm not using crypttab with
this system, I'm using it with another one. So probably this will affect me.

Thanks for your fast and competent reply. Thanks to all the others who
have replied also!

Best regards,
Karol Babioch