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Old 07-01-2012, 03:08 PM
"Zero, Chien-An Cho"
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

Hello,

First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
to resolve this issue.

I have posted this message on the forum:
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
that I'm requesting for reopen here:
https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444

The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
modification to make text smoother.

The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
independent country which having its own government. I think this
might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
country name.

Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
ICU[6].

I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.

References:

[1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
[2] Rails: http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
[3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
[4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
[5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
[6] ICU: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt

Best Regards,
Chien-An "Zero" Cho
 
Old 07-01-2012, 03:24 PM
BlissSam
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

Hello,

I am a Simplified Chinese user with 2 years of arch experience (of*course*I am not joining the community),
but I agree with your opinion.
I don't want ArchLinux to repeat the way that Red Hat used to go (Red Hat used to call Taiwan 'Taiwan, province of China', and many people refused to use it --according to Wikipedia).
I think that just simply calling it 'Taiwan' is okay. We don't care what the government is saying (especially, P.R. China government may be angry, but who cares?). What we want to do is to provide*convenience*to the user, is it?

So I agree with you and I really hope the community to change its name back to Taiwan (as I know, the name is used to be 'Taiwan' in the past years)

The fact is we don't want to talk a lot about political issues, but changing its name to Taiwan is a good idea.


Sam


----------------------------------------
> From: itszero@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:08:07 +0800
> To: arch-general@archlinux.org
> Subject: [arch-general] Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues
>
> Hello,
>
> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
> to resolve this issue.
>
> I have posted this message on the forum:
> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
>
> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
> modification to make text smoother.
>
> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
> independent country which having its own government. I think this
> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
> country name.
>
> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
> ICU[6].
>
> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
>
> References:
>
> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
> [2] Rails: http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
> [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
> [5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
> [6] ICU: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt
>
> Best Regards,
> Chien-An "Zero" Cho
 
Old 07-01-2012, 03:27 PM
逸冰欧阳
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

I agree with you, guys. Although I come from China.
On Jul 1, 2012 11:24 PM, "BlissSam" <m13253@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hello,
>
> I am a Simplified Chinese user with 2 years of arch experience
> (of course I am not joining the community),
> but I agree with your opinion.
> I don't want ArchLinux to repeat the way that Red Hat used to go (Red Hat
> used to call Taiwan 'Taiwan, province of China', and many people refused to
> use it --according to Wikipedia).
> I think that just simply calling it 'Taiwan' is okay. We don't care what
> the government is saying (especially, P.R. China government may be angry,
> but who cares?). What we want to do is to provide convenience to the user,
> is it?
>
> So I agree with you and I really hope the community to change its name
> back to Taiwan (as I know, the name is used to be 'Taiwan' in the past
> years)
>
> The fact is we don't want to talk a lot about political issues, but
> changing its name to Taiwan is a good idea.
>
>
> Sam
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > From: itszero@gmail.com
> > Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2012 23:08:07 +0800
> > To: arch-general@archlinux.org
> > Subject: [arch-general] Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
> > been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
> > not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
> > ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
> > Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
> > to resolve this issue.
> >
> > I have posted this message on the forum:
> > https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
> > suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
> > There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
> > that I'm requesting for reopen here:
> > https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
> >
> > The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
> > modification to make text smoother.
> >
> > The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
> > Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
> > independent country which having its own government. I think this
> > might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
> > However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
> > country name.
> >
> > Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
> > Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
> > that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
> > country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
> > commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
> > list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
> > cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
> > ICU[6].
> >
> > I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
> > world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
> > benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
> > ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
> > growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
> > in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
> > I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
> > keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
> >
> > References:
> >
> > [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
> > [2] Rails:
> http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
> > [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
> > [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
> > [5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
> > [6] ICU:
> http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Chien-An "Zero" Cho
>
 
Old 07-01-2012, 05:28 PM
Loui Chang
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun 01 Jul 2012 23:08 +0800, Zero, Chien-An Cho wrote:
> Hello,
>
> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
> to resolve this issue.
>
> I have posted this message on the forum:
> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
>
> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
> modification to make text smoother.
>
> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
> independent country which having its own government. I think this
> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
> country name.
>
> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
> ICU[6].
>
> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
>
> References:
>
> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
> [2] Rails: http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
> [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
> [5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
> [6] ICU: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt

I agree. I'm very disappointed by the response of Dave Reisner on that
bug report. The reality is that the PRC does not have jurisdiction or
claim over Taiwan. When standards are false they should not be followed.

Dave: Can you educate yourself a little about the Republic of China and
Taiwan vs the People's Republic of China, before making a final
decision? Thank you.
 
Old 07-01-2012, 07:23 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun 01 Jul 2012 23:08 +0800, Zero, Chien-An Cho wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
>> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
>> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
>> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
>> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
>> to resolve this issue.
>>
>> I have posted this message on the forum:
>> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
>> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
>> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
>> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
>> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
>>
>> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
>> modification to make text smoother.
>>
>> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
>> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
>> independent country which having its own government. I think this
>> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
>> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
>> country name.
>>
>> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
>> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
>> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
>> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
>> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
>> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
>> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
>> ICU[6].
>>
>> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
>> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
>> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
>> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
>> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
>> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
>> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
>> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
>>
>> References:
>>
>> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
>> [2] Rails: http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
>> [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
>> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
>> [5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
>> [6] ICU: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt
>
> I agree. I'm very disappointed by the response of Dave Reisner on that
> bug report. The reality is that the PRC does not have jurisdiction or
> claim over Taiwan. When standards are false they should not be followed.
>
> Dave: Can you educate yourself a little about the Republic of China and
> Taiwan vs the People's Republic of China, before making a final
> decision? Thank you.

This has been discussed a number of times. While no one has so far
questioned the validity of the bug, the consensus seems to be that
this should be taken upstream [0].

I hope it is clear that no offense is intended, and that we do not
want to make any political judgments (and hence defer to the UN).

[0]: <http://www.iso.org/iso/updates_on_iso_3166.html>.
 
Old 07-01-2012, 07:49 PM
Loui Chang
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun 01 Jul 2012 21:23 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun 01 Jul 2012 23:08 +0800, Zero, Chien-An Cho wrote:
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
> >> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
> >> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
> >> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
> >> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
> >> to resolve this issue.
> >>
> >> I have posted this message on the forum:
> >> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
> >> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
> >> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
> >> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
> >> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
> >>
> >> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
> >> modification to make text smoother.
> >>
> >> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
> >> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
> >> independent country which having its own government. I think this
> >> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
> >> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
> >> country name.
> >>
> >> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
> >> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
> >> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
> >> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
> >> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
> >> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
> >> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
> >> ICU[6].
> >>
> >> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
> >> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
> >> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
> >> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
> >> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
> >> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
> >> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
> >> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
> >>
> >> References:
> >>
> >> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
> >> [2] Rails: http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
> >> [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
> >> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
> >> [5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
> >> [6] ICU: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt
> >
> > I agree. I'm very disappointed by the response of Dave Reisner on that
> > bug report. The reality is that the PRC does not have jurisdiction or
> > claim over Taiwan. When standards are false they should not be followed.
> >
> > Dave: Can you educate yourself a little about the Republic of China and
> > Taiwan vs the People's Republic of China, before making a final
> > decision? Thank you.
>
> This has been discussed a number of times. While no one has so far
> questioned the validity of the bug, the consensus seems to be that
> this should be taken upstream [0].
>
> I hope it is clear that no offense is intended, and that we do not
> want to make any political judgments (and hence defer to the UN).
>
> [0]: <http://www.iso.org/iso/updates_on_iso_3166.html>.

Gimme a break. These kind of political issues aren't solved by "taking
it upstream". Since when are politicians or people under the influence
of politics known for their outstanding adherence to logic and reason?
It's not such a simple technical thing that you can "take it upstream."
If you have any idea how the ISO works you will wake up to the fact of
how ridiculous that suggestion is. If Taiwan (ROC) can't get it to
happen, what do you expect of us?

But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
standard is no standard at all.
 
Old 07-01-2012, 10:29 PM
Allan McRae
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On 02/07/12 05:49, Loui Chang wrote:
> On Sun 01 Jul 2012 21:23 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote:
>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun 01 Jul 2012 23:08 +0800, Zero, Chien-An Cho wrote:
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
>>>> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
>>>> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
>>>> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
>>>> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
>>>> to resolve this issue.
>>>>
>>>> I have posted this message on the forum:
>>>> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
>>>> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
>>>> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
>>>> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
>>>> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
>>>>
>>>> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
>>>> modification to make text smoother.
>>>>
>>>> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
>>>> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
>>>> independent country which having its own government. I think this
>>>> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
>>>> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
>>>> country name.
>>>>
>>>> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
>>>> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
>>>> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
>>>> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
>>>> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
>>>> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
>>>> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
>>>> ICU[6].
>>>>
>>>> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
>>>> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
>>>> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
>>>> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
>>>> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
>>>> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
>>>> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
>>>> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
>>>>
>>>> References:
>>>>
>>>> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
>>>> [2] Rails: http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
>>>> [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
>>>> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/
>>>> [5] IBM: http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html
>>>> [6] ICU: http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt
>>>
>>> I agree. I'm very disappointed by the response of Dave Reisner on that
>>> bug report. The reality is that the PRC does not have jurisdiction or
>>> claim over Taiwan. When standards are false they should not be followed.
>>>
>>> Dave: Can you educate yourself a little about the Republic of China and
>>> Taiwan vs the People's Republic of China, before making a final
>>> decision? Thank you.
>>
>> This has been discussed a number of times. While no one has so far
>> questioned the validity of the bug, the consensus seems to be that
>> this should be taken upstream [0].
>>
>> I hope it is clear that no offense is intended, and that we do not
>> want to make any political judgments (and hence defer to the UN).
>>
>> [0]: <http://www.iso.org/iso/updates_on_iso_3166.html>.
>
> Gimme a break. These kind of political issues aren't solved by "taking
> it upstream". Since when are politicians or people under the influence
> of politics known for their outstanding adherence to logic and reason?
> It's not such a simple technical thing that you can "take it upstream."
> If you have any idea how the ISO works you will wake up to the fact of
> how ridiculous that suggestion is. If Taiwan (ROC) can't get it to
> happen, what do you expect of us?
>
> But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
> for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
> standard is no standard at all.
>


Well... this discussion will go nowhere... And I should point out that
most developers are now not subscribed from this list because of its low
signal-to-noise ratio so this thread will likely not get to the right
people.

The solution is to find us a different upstream that has any sort of
standards backing. This is just like Arch's policy with software. We do
not patch because a feature is not the way we like it.

Allan
 
Old 07-01-2012, 11:47 PM
Tom Gundersen
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gimme a break. These kind of political issues aren't solved by "taking
> it upstream". Since when are politicians or people under the influence
> of politics known for their outstanding adherence to logic and reason?
> It's not such a simple technical thing that you can "take it upstream."
> If you have any idea how the ISO works you will wake up to the fact of
> how ridiculous that suggestion is. If Taiwan (ROC) can't get it to
> happen, what do you expect of us?

I didn't mean to imply that this was a simple problem to solve (and I agree with
your aim for what that's worth). Simply that we do not want to make political
decisions at all. This might be a straightforward one, but it sets a
precedent and
next time around we might be asked to decide on something less clear-cut.

> But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
> for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
> standard is no standard at all.

I had a look at ICU, but could not find any satisfactory
documentation. They claim
to take their data from the same ISO standard that we already use, but I could
find no explanation for the discrepancy.

To be a bit constructive: IMHO any proposal for a change must be made in general
terms, and not by special-casing based on this issue. So, if we can
find a new upstream
that is comparable to ISO3166, but at the same time is somehow more
"neutral", that
would be something to consider I guess.

I have to agree with Allan though, this issue is likely going nowhere.

-t
 
Old 07-02-2012, 12:47 AM
Allan McRae
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On 02/07/12 09:47, Tom Gundersen wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Gimme a break. These kind of political issues aren't solved by "taking
>> it upstream". Since when are politicians or people under the influence
>> of politics known for their outstanding adherence to logic and reason?
>> It's not such a simple technical thing that you can "take it upstream."
>> If you have any idea how the ISO works you will wake up to the fact of
>> how ridiculous that suggestion is. If Taiwan (ROC) can't get it to
>> happen, what do you expect of us?
>
> I didn't mean to imply that this was a simple problem to solve (and I agree with
> your aim for what that's worth). Simply that we do not want to make political
> decisions at all. This might be a straightforward one, but it sets a
> precedent and
> next time around we might be asked to decide on something less clear-cut.
>
>> But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
>> for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
>> standard is no standard at all.
>
> I had a look at ICU, but could not find any satisfactory
> documentation. They claim
> to take their data from the same ISO standard that we already use, but I could
> find no explanation for the discrepancy.
>
> To be a bit constructive: IMHO any proposal for a change must be made in general
> terms, and not by special-casing based on this issue. So, if we can
> find a new upstream
> that is comparable to ISO3166, but at the same time is somehow more
> "neutral", that
> would be something to consider I guess.
>
> I have to agree with Allan though, this issue is likely going nowhere.
>

I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
are just removed from the official mirrorlist.

Allan
 
Old 07-02-2012, 12:51 AM
Andrew Hills
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.

I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
from the mirrorlist.

--Andrew Hills
 

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