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Old 07-02-2012, 07:20 AM
Zero Cho
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

Devon,

Thanks for your support. You're right. This is not intended to be a
political debate, so I have been using a neutral word, Taiwan, rather than
other more official but sensitive, less common name. It's the fact that ISO
is not reflecting how most of the world see it. ISO does not have authority
over the country name. ISO does not obligate to reflect how world sees
things too. I'm not asking for special treatments. I'm just asking you to
follow the convention created from previous experience to prevent the
misunderstanding and debates.

I want to point out one thing. I will be willing to bring this to the
upstream project. However, if the upstream project is unwilling to make the
changes and maybe suggest us to fork a new project instead. The choice of
using the which plugin will fall back to the ArchLinux community. The whole
debate will go through again. This is not something just my imagination.
This is a real story happened in Rails(Ruby's counterparts of django)
community where Rails split out country list as a separate project and
people do fork to provide a better version.

Dear all ArchLinux developers, please think it through again. Thanks. If
possible, use Devon's suggestion.

------------------------------
*From:* "Devon Sawatzky" <s4wa7z@gmail.com>
*To:* "General Discussion about Arch Linux" <arch-general@archlinux.org>
*Sent:* July 2, 2012 1:26 PM
*Subject:* Re: [arch-general] Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

As Gaetan pointed out, it is not the job of Linux distribution maintainers
to decide country names. But it seems to me this whole issue is not really
about deciding what to name a country as that decision has already been
made by many. The fact is simply that the data being used does not
accurately reflect the world as most see it today.

If this is not the case and this is in fact a political debate, then I am
wrong, but it appears to me this is a technical debate about whether it is
the responsibility of Arch, or someone else to implement the change. I
would like to suggest that this is a fairly trivial change, so whether Arch
"is supposed to" change the name is irrelevant. The fact remains that,
regardless of whether they are obligated to change it or not, it is an easy
thing to do that would be very positive for a lot of people. A good
solution it seems would be to implement a temporary workaround and apply
pressure upstream for a permanent fix using the weight of Arch's influence.

Devon

Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Myra Nelson wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Andrew Hills wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
> >> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
> >> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.
> >
> > I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
> > the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
> > solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
> > from the mirrorlist.
> >
> > --Andrew Hills
>
> A little more bikeshed.
>
> I propose all servers not located in the Republic of Texas be removed
> from the mirrorlist. Oh yeah the rest of y'all call us a state now.
>
> Myra
>
> --
> Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
>
 
Old 07-02-2012, 07:28 AM
Jason Ryan
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On 02/07/12 at 07:20am, Zero Cho wrote:
>
> Thanks for your support. You're right. This is not intended to be a
> political debate, so I have been using a neutral word, Taiwan, rather than
> other more official but sensitive, less common name. It's the fact that ISO
> is not reflecting how most of the world see it. ISO does not have authority
> over the country name. ISO does not obligate to reflect how world sees
> things too. I'm not asking for special treatments. I'm just asking you to
> follow the convention created from previous experience to prevent the
> misunderstanding and debates.
>
As the ISO page clearly states, the country names are sourced from the United
Nations:

“The country names in ISO 3166 come from United Nations sources. New names and
codes are added automatically when the United Nations publishes new names in
either the Terminology Bulletin Country Names or in the Country and Region Codes
for Statistical Use maintained by the United Nations Statistics Divisions.”
http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/country_codes

Asking Arch to modify the standard *is* a political act. The whole point of
using a standard for what is an extremely fraught topic (geography and naming
conventions) is to avoid these sorts of issues.

If you have an alternative standard that can be used, please suggest it.

(And please don't top post, it breaks the thread…)

/J

--

http://jasonwryan.com/ [GnuPG Key: B1BD4E40]
 
Old 07-02-2012, 07:36 AM
anti
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

I am surprised no one sees what can of worms this might open. There's a
lot of countries whose names are contested, and sometimes the naming
will cause emotional reactions by more than one side - take the small
nation north of Greece, *commonly* (but not officially) known as
Macedonia, or Yao Wei's example of Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela vs.
Venezuela. If the Arch developers/community are willing to take there
time and discuss every contested name, so be it, but I suspect it might
have a negative effect on the core business of a Linux distribution.


On 02/07/12 09:20, Zero Cho wrote:
> Devon,
>
> Thanks for your support. You're right. This is not intended to be a
> political debate, so I have been using a neutral word, Taiwan, rather than
> other more official but sensitive, less common name. It's the fact that ISO
> is not reflecting how most of the world see it. ISO does not have authority
> over the country name. ISO does not obligate to reflect how world seesBut
> things too. I'm not asking for special treatments. I'm just asking you to
> follow the convention created from previous experience to prevent the
> misunderstanding and debates.
>
> I want to point out one thing. I will be willing to bring this to the
> upstream project. However, if the upstream project is unwilling to make the
> changes and maybe suggest us to fork a new project instead. The choice of
> using the which plugin will fall back to the ArchLinux community. The whole
> debate will go through again. This is not something just my imagination.
> This is a real story happened in Rails(Ruby's counterparts of django)
> community where Rails split out country list as a separate project and
> people do fork to provide a better version.
>
> Dear all ArchLinux developers, please think it through again. Thanks. If
> possible, use Devon's suggestion.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* "Devon Sawatzky" <s4wa7z@gmail.com>
> *To:* "General Discussion about Arch Linux" <arch-general@archlinux.org>
> *Sent:* July 2, 2012 1:26 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [arch-general] Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues
>
> As Gaetan pointed out, it is not the job of Linux distribution maintainers
> to decide country names. But it seems to me this whole issue is not really
> about deciding what to name a country as that decision has already been
> made by many. The fact is simply that the data being used does not
> accurately reflect the world as most see it today.
>
> If this is not the case and this is in fact a political debate, then I am
> wrong, but it appears to me this is a technical debate about whether it is
> the responsibility of Arch, or someone else to implement the change. I
> would like to suggest that this is a fairly trivial change, so whether Arch
> "is supposed to" change the name is irrelevant. The fact remains that,
> regardless of whether they are obligated to change it or not, it is an easy
> thing to do that would be very positive for a lot of people. A good
> solution it seems would be to implement a temporary workaround and apply
> pressure upstream for a permanent fix using the weight of Arch's influence.
>
> Devon
>
> Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Myra Nelson wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Andrew Hills wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae wrote:
>>>> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
>>>> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.
>>>
>>> I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
>>> the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
>>> solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
>>> from the mirrorlist.
>>>
>>> --Andrew Hills
>>
>> A little more bikeshed.
>>
>> I propose all servers not located in the Republic of Texas be removed
>> from the mirrorlist. Oh yeah the rest of y'all call us a state now.
>>
>> Myra
>>
>> --
>> Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
>>
>
> __________________________________________________ __________________________________
> Get the best selection of cheap sites here. Click Here to check them out!
> http://click.lavabit.com/ihrwwxzthobyrr8o77ika6ye54xwa44p9hjjrkc1doatko6sx8 4b/
> __________________________________________________ __________________________________
>
 
Old 07-02-2012, 08:20 AM
Pierre Schmitz
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

Am 02.07.2012 01:47, schrieb Tom Gundersen:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:49 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
>> But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
>> for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
>> standard is no standard at all.
>
> I had a look at ICU, but could not find any satisfactory
> documentation. They claim
> to take their data from the same ISO standard that we already use,
> but I could
> find no explanation for the discrepancy.
>
> To be a bit constructive: IMHO any proposal for a change must be made
> in general
> terms, and not by special-casing based on this issue. So, if we can
> find a new upstream
> that is comparable to ISO3166, but at the same time is somehow more
> "neutral", that
> would be something to consider I guess.

In addition to all the arguments why we cannot simply change country
names and we are in general the wrong people to ask for there are also
technical reasons to not make up our own names here. All kinds of
software and libraries support this naming standard which makes it
possible to map country names. For example I use geoip and our
mirrorlist to redirect users to the best mirror within their country.
There are probably other use cases which rely on the country names being
standardized.

So yes, if you think your country is named wrongly in the standard you
should change this standard or create a new one which then needs to be
accepted by most software projects. We probably ship a lot of packages
using these names and patching all these ourselves is not the way to go.
And even if we would want to, on what should we base a decision?
Obviously there are different opinions how certain countries should be
named.

However, one could switch to the two or three letter naming standard
which hopefully would be less controversial. It would also be less human
readable, but at least one would keep it technically valid.

Greetings,

Pierre

--
Pierre Schmitz, https://pierre-schmitz.com
 
Old 07-02-2012, 08:20 AM
Loui Chang
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Mon 02 Jul 2012 19:28 +1200, Jason Ryan wrote:
> On 02/07/12 at 07:20am, Zero Cho wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your support. You're right. This is not intended to be a
> > political debate, so I have been using a neutral word, Taiwan, rather than
> > other more official but sensitive, less common name. It's the fact that ISO
> > is not reflecting how most of the world see it. ISO does not have authority
> > over the country name. ISO does not obligate to reflect how world sees
> > things too. I'm not asking for special treatments. I'm just asking you to
> > follow the convention created from previous experience to prevent the
> > misunderstanding and debates.
>
> As the ISO page clearly states, the country names are sourced from the United
> Nations:
>
> “The country names in ISO 3166 come from United Nations sources. New names and
> codes are added automatically when the United Nations publishes new names in
> either the Terminology Bulletin Country Names or in the Country and Region Codes
> for Statistical Use maintained by the United Nations Statistics Divisions.”
> http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/country_codes
>
> Asking Arch to modify the standard *is* a political act. The whole point of
> using a standard for what is an extremely fraught topic (geography and naming
> conventions) is to avoid these sorts of issues.
>
> If you have an alternative standard that can be used, please suggest it.

An alternative has already been suggested. There's no reason we need to
keep coming back to ISO/UN. I'm not sure what the issue is anymore and
why this can't be fixed. This is silly.

At any rate someone should write to whoever maintains django-countries
and have them fix things on their end. These things could have been
mentioned from the very get-go in the original bug report in discussion
instead of closing the report with zero discussion.

Incidentally the forum post is now closed and hidden from the public.
Great work.
 
Old 07-02-2012, 09:00 AM
Gaetan Bisson
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

[2012-07-02 04:20:57 -0400] Loui Chang:
> An alternative has already been suggested. There's no reason we need to
> keep coming back to ISO/UN. I'm not sure what the issue is anymore and
> why this can't be fixed. This is silly.

Exactly. Why did nobody submit a patch to ArchWeb [1] implementing the
switch to this unnamed alternative? It baffles me.

[1] http://projects.archlinux.org/archweb.git/

> At any rate someone should write to whoever maintains django-countries
> and have them fix things on their end.

Yeah, someone really should.

--
Gaetan
 
Old 07-02-2012, 09:05 AM
Allan McRae
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On 02/07/12 18:20, Loui Chang wrote:
> On Mon 02 Jul 2012 19:28 +1200, Jason Ryan wrote:
>> On 02/07/12 at 07:20am, Zero Cho wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for your support. You're right. This is not intended to be a
>>> political debate, so I have been using a neutral word, Taiwan, rather than
>>> other more official but sensitive, less common name. It's the fact that ISO
>>> is not reflecting how most of the world see it. ISO does not have authority
>>> over the country name. ISO does not obligate to reflect how world sees
>>> things too. I'm not asking for special treatments. I'm just asking you to
>>> follow the convention created from previous experience to prevent the
>>> misunderstanding and debates.
>>
>> As the ISO page clearly states, the country names are sourced from the United
>> Nations:
>>
>> “The country names in ISO 3166 come from United Nations sources. New names and
>> codes are added automatically when the United Nations publishes new names in
>> either the Terminology Bulletin Country Names or in the Country and Region Codes
>> for Statistical Use maintained by the United Nations Statistics Divisions.”
>> http://www.iso.org/iso/country_codes/country_codes
>>
>> Asking Arch to modify the standard *is* a political act. The whole point of
>> using a standard for what is an extremely fraught topic (geography and naming
>> conventions) is to avoid these sorts of issues.
>>
>> If you have an alternative standard that can be used, please suggest it.
>
> An alternative has already been suggested. There's no reason we need to
> keep coming back to ISO/UN. I'm not sure what the issue is anymore and
> why this can't be fixed. This is silly.

Arch does not patch the software it uses when we do not agree with
upstream decisions. So we would require breaking one of the core Arch
principles to implement any suggestions so far.

> At any rate someone should write to whoever maintains django-countries
> and have them fix things on their end. These things could have been
> mentioned from the very get-go in the original bug report in discussion
> instead of closing the report with zero discussion.

Are you looking at the _original_ bug report. It has an actual comment
explaining why it was closed.

> Incidentally the forum post is now closed and hidden from the public.
> Great work.

As is a standard and well documented practice for all political
discussion on the forums...

Allan
 
Old 07-03-2012, 02:44 AM
Damjan
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

I didn't mean to imply that this was a simple problem to solve (and I agree with
your aim for what that's worth). Simply that we do not want to make political
decisions at all.


I didn't want to get into this discussion, but I've seen this claim made
several times. Siding with UN (or any other political entity) *IS*
making a political decision. I could easily jump to Goodwin's now, with
an analogy of when accepting the status-quo or major political force
would not be acceptable for anyone here... anyway..
(would you allow women to vote on Arch issues, when/if they couldn't
vote for parliament, as they couldn't in a lot of places ?)



You now claim that Republic of Macedonia's name is "Macedonia, The
Former Yugoslav Republic of" but there's no such *name*. It's just a
*temporary* reference used by *some* institutions in the world and then
again, not by others.


The UN uses that reference too, even when it's own charters (should)
guaranty the right of a sovereign country to have it's own name (ie the
right of self determination). So why does Arch not abide by those UN
charters? Obviously UN is politically inconsistent with itself here, and
Arch now decided to comply with those political decisions.



If I've been trying to build a community, I'd ask the people that
created & manage the server what they think (or feel) it should be named
after. That's how meritocratic communities usually work round here, right?
Meritocracy is still not non-political, but at least is most fair to
everyone in a community, even the weaker.



--
дамјан
 
Old 07-04-2012, 06:10 AM
Yao Wei (魏銘廷)
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

For people still care about this issue, I made a reply in a related
issue of django-countries here:
https://bitbucket.org/smileychris/django-countries/issue/16/capitalization-and-diacritics-in-some

It is actually a fork of the original long-and-unmaintained project at
google code, and is versioned 1.2 in pypi.


--
Yao Wei
 

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