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Old 07-02-2012, 12:52 AM
Allan McRae
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On 02/07/12 10:51, Andrew Hills wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
>> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.
>
> I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
> the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
> solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
> from the mirrorlist.
>

Done.
 
Old 07-02-2012, 01:50 AM
BlissSam
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

Do never remove any mirrors from the mirrorlist!

Acturally, if a Taiwan user tries to connect a China mirror, the connection
is really really slow. The same as Hong Kong or Macau, although they belong
to China.

If you remove any mirror from the mirrorlist, only trouble will be brought
to the user.




Sam

----------------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 10:52:07 +1000
> From: allan@archlinux.org
> To: arch-general@archlinux.org
> Subject: Re: [arch-general] Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues
>
> On 02/07/12 10:51, Andrew Hills wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
> >> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.
> >
> > I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
> > the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
> > solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
> > from the mirrorlist.
> >
>
> Done.
>
>
>
 
Old 07-02-2012, 01:51 AM
Yao Wei (魏銘廷)
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

I am the reporter of FS#30444, and I've filed and patched a bug of a
little project with the identical problem:
If you are using iso-codes from extra repo, there is a common name of
“Taiwan, Province of China” which is named “Taiwan”. And by using
that, “Taiwan, Province of China” and “Venezuela, Bolivarian Republic
of” are changed to “Taiwan” and “Venezuela”.

I don't hope these mirrors get removed by the way. One of the mirrors
in Taiwan is Tier 1.

--
Yao Wei
 
Old 07-02-2012, 02:13 AM
Leonid Isaev
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 15:49:46 -0400
Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun 01 Jul 2012 21:23 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sun 01 Jul 2012 23:08 +0800, Zero, Chien-An Cho wrote:
> > >> Hello,
> > >>
> > >> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
> > >> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
> > >> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
> > >> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really offending
> > >> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and preferably
> > >> to resolve this issue.
> > >>
> > >> I have posted this message on the forum:
> > >> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
> > >> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
> > >> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
> > >> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
> > >> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
> > >>
> > >> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
> > >> modification to make text smoother.
> > >>
> > >> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
> > >> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is a
> > >> independent country which having its own government. I think this
> > >> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list standard.
> > >> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
> > >> country name.
> > >>
> > >> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
> > >> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
> > >> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
> > >> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
> > >> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their country
> > >> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
> > >> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
> > >> ICU[6].
> > >>
> > >> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around the
> > >> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
> > >> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
> > >> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux is
> > >> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors site
> > >> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent years.
> > >> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible. Let's
> > >> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
> > >>
> > >> References:
> > >>
> > >> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
> > >> [2] Rails:
> > >> http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
> > >> [3] Debian: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
> > >> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/ [5] IBM:
> > >> http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html [6] ICU:
> > >> http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txt
> > >
> > > I agree. I'm very disappointed by the response of Dave Reisner on that
> > > bug report. The reality is that the PRC does not have jurisdiction or
> > > claim over Taiwan. When standards are false they should not be followed.
> > >
> > > Dave: Can you educate yourself a little about the Republic of China and
> > > Taiwan vs the People's Republic of China, before making a final
> > > decision? Thank you.
> >
> > This has been discussed a number of times. While no one has so far
> > questioned the validity of the bug, the consensus seems to be that
> > this should be taken upstream [0].
> >
> > I hope it is clear that no offense is intended, and that we do not
> > want to make any political judgments (and hence defer to the UN).
> >
> > [0]: <http://www.iso.org/iso/updates_on_iso_3166.html>.
>
> Gimme a break. These kind of political issues aren't solved by "taking
> it upstream". Since when are politicians or people under the influence
> of politics known for their outstanding adherence to logic and reason?
> It's not such a simple technical thing that you can "take it upstream."
> If you have any idea how the ISO works you will wake up to the fact of
> how ridiculous that suggestion is. If Taiwan (ROC) can't get it to
> happen, what do you expect of us?

Please note that noone here means any disrespect to citizens of Taiwan or
other any country. But also not everyone is well educated in other countries'
history (especially such fine-grained as that of Taiwan), nor does said
education have highest priority.

While many people understand that Province of China may sound offensive and
certainly everyone recognizes Taiwan's sovereignty, you have to keep in mind
that for a vast majority of users there is a little distinction between all
the names Taiwan has been given by UN/ISO/... -- those are just designations.

Therefore, taking this discussion to a public ML is educative and pointless as
it will only feed the trolls (as you can already see). If you really feel like
you have to, report the issue personally to the site maintainer or the project
leader.

>
> But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
> for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
> standard is no standard at all.
>



--
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D
Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
 
Old 07-02-2012, 02:52 AM
"Zero, Chien-An Cho"
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

Well... Given the action taken by some developers in this thread, I can't
imagine what will happen if we take this issue to the maintainer privately.

I understand there is no insult intention by everyine, but by using that
word, it IS offending.

I am not asking everyone to be educated about our history nor asking
everyone to understand, and that is exactly the reason why I provided so
many references in my post. To help people get a quick concept of what our
demand is and to know how other communities and company did about this.

That being said, let's continue to have a constructive conversation.

I don't think that a country name can be easily defined by a so-called
standard. A country's name should be decided by its people or, at least,
the local authority. Open the Taiwan official website in English, you will
see we actually called Republic of China, or a more common and neutral
word, Taiwan[1]. There are many authorities data listed us as Taiwan as
well, like the CIA world book[2].

We are not the only country being affected by this false standard. See the
Rails reference in my original post or Yao-Wei's mail for more information.

I think Yao-Wei's idea of using common names is good.

[1] http://www.taiwan.gov.tw/mp.asp?mp=999
[2] https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/tw.html

ArchLinux is a user-centric system defined in the Arch Way, so please at
least take our opinion seriously. Don't reject it on the first sight by
just saying we're following a standard. Thanks.

On Monday, July 2, 2012, Leonid Isaev <lisaev@umail.iu.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jul 2012 15:49:46 -0400
> Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sun 01 Jul 2012 21:23 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote:
>> > On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:28 PM, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com>
wrote:
>> > > On Sun 01 Jul 2012 23:08 +0800, Zero, Chien-An Cho wrote:
>> > >> Hello,
>> > >>
>> > >> First of all, I am sorry to bring political issues to here. I have
>> > >> been using ArchLinux for years, deployed on many servers, though I'm
>> > >> not joining the community until now. The recent changes to the
>> > >> ArchLinux webpages (ex. Downloads, Mirror Status) is really
offending
>> > >> Taiwanese people. I would like to bring up this issue, and
preferably
>> > >> to resolve this issue.
>> > >>
>> > >> I have posted this message on the forum:
>> > >> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=144315 . The moderator
>> > >> suggested me to post on arch-general, so here it is.
>> > >> There is also a bug tracking issue submitted by other Taiwanese user
>> > >> that I'm requesting for reopen here:
>> > >> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/30444
>> > >>
>> > >> The following text is the same as the post on forum, except a few
>> > >> modification to make text smoother.
>> > >>
>> > >> The recent changes on the download page named Taiwan as Taiwan,
>> > >> Province of China, which is not reflecting the truth that Taiwan is
a
>> > >> independent country which having its own government. I think this
>> > >> might be caused by following the ISO-3166 country name list
standard.
>> > >> However, I don't think ISO-3166 is a good list when it comes to the
>> > >> country name.
>> > >>
>> > >> Many open source communities have encountered this problem before.
>> > >> Most of them understand that ISO-3166 is not really a neutral list
>> > >> that we all hope for, and thus made switch to a separate maintained
>> > >> country list. For example, FreeBSD[1], Rails[2], Debian[3]. Many big
>> > >> commercial entities also opt not to use "Taiwan, PRC" in their
country
>> > >> list, like: Apple[4], IBM[5], also try Google, Facebook, Twitter, et
>> > >> cetra. A possible solution might be using the country name list from
>> > >> ICU[6].
>> > >>
>> > >> I believed the ArchLinux is trying to expand its user-base around
the
>> > >> world, so a neutral country name list would be the best for the
>> > >> benefit of all of us, ArchLinux developers and users. As a Taiwanese
>> > >> ArchLinux user, I'm really happy to see that user base of ArchLinux
is
>> > >> growing in Taiwan. Some educational institutions provide mirrors
site
>> > >> in Taiwan, Wiki localized in Traditional Chinese in the recent
years.
>> > >> I sincerely hope this issue can be resolved as soon as possible.
Let's
>> > >> keep the issue simple and not flaming it, thanks.
>> > >>
>> > >> References:
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] FreeBSD: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=138672
>> > >> [2] Rails:
>> > >>
http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2008/9/24/countries-and-controversies/
>> > >> [3] Debian:
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2004/04/msg00798.html
>> > >> [4] Apple: http://www.apple.com/choose-your-country/ [5] IBM:
>> > >> http://www.ibm.com/planetwide/select/selector.html [6] ICU:
>> > >>
http://source.icu-project.org/repos/icu/icu/trunk/source/data/region/en.txtPleasenote
that noone here means any disrespect to citizens of Taiwan or
> other any country. But also not everyone is well educated in other
countries'
> history (especially such fine-grained as that of Taiwan), nor does said
> education have highest priority.
>
> While many people understand that Province of China may sound offensive
and
> certainly everyone recognizes Taiwan's sovereignty, you have to keep in
mind
> that for a vast majority of users there is a little distinction between
all
> the names Taiwan has been given by UN/ISO/... -- those are just
designations.
>
> Therefore, taking this discussion to a public ML is educative and
pointless as
> it will only feed the trolls (as you can already see). If you really feel
like
> you have to, report the issue personally to the site maintainer or the
project
> leader.
>
>>
>> But as has been suggested maybe Arch should choose a different upstream
>> for this kind of information. Please open your mind a little, a false
>> standard is no standard at all.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Leonid Isaev
> GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D
> Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
>

--
Best Regards,
Zero, Chien-An Cho
 
Old 07-02-2012, 03:34 AM
Gaetan Bisson
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

[2012-07-02 10:52:27 +0800] Zero, Chien-An Cho:
> That being said, let's continue to have a constructive conversation.

No. This is a Linux distribution; deciding what countries should be
called is just not what we do. Our website uses the django country list;
please direct any complaints there.

--
Gaetan
 
Old 07-02-2012, 04:33 AM
albertsong
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

I could totally understand that you think this is none of your business.
But please kindly put yourself in our shoes, what would you feel when you
try to download iso image of ArchLInux,
and find out the name of you're country has ", Province of China" fallowed
by it?
You know there's no offense, it's just because some standard listed it like
that.

I don't know what you would think, but for us, it's just wrong, so I bag
for you're kindness.
I believe the site is controlled by ArchLinux and ArchLinux can easily
change this behavior, please do us this little favor.

BTW, is the mentioned "django country list" this one?
http://code.google.com/p/django-countries/

Sincerely

2012/7/2 Gaetan Bisson <bisson@archlinux.org>

> [2012-07-02 10:52:27 +0800] Zero, Chien-An Cho:
> > That being said, let's continue to have a constructive conversation.
>
> No. This is a Linux distribution; deciding what countries should be
> called is just not what we do. Our website uses the django country list;
> please direct any complaints there.
>
> --
> Gaetan
>
 
Old 07-02-2012, 04:41 AM
Myra Nelson
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Andrew Hills <hills.as@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
>> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.
>
> I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
> the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
> solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
> from the mirrorlist.
>
> --Andrew Hills

A little more bikeshed.

I propose all servers not located in the Republic of Texas be removed
from the mirrorlist. Oh yeah the rest of y'all call us a state now.

Myra

--
Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
 
Old 07-02-2012, 05:21 AM
Gaetan Bisson
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

[2012-07-02 12:33:17 +0800] albertsong:
> But please kindly put yourself in our shoes, what would you feel when you
> try to download iso image of ArchLInux,
> and find out the name of you're country has ", Province of China" fallowed
> by it?

Thanks but I already understand the issue.

Honestly, what do you think is best:
- Get the name fixed in the upstream database, so all projects who rely
on it (not just Arch) can benefit from the improvement.
- Have us, non-specialists on country naming issues, maintain a special
patch against this database for the sole benefit of our website?

> BTW, is the mentioned "django country list" this one?
> http://code.google.com/p/django-countries/

Yes. See line 13 of:

http://projects.archlinux.org/archweb.git/tree/mirrors/views.py

--
Gaetan
 
Old 07-02-2012, 05:25 AM
Devon Sawatzky
 
Default Country Name (ISO-3116) Issues

As Gaetan pointed out, it is not the job of Linux distribution maintainers
to decide country names. But it seems to me this whole issue is not really
about deciding what to name a country as that decision has already been
made by many. The fact is simply that the data being used does not
accurately reflect the world as most see it today.

If this is not the case and this is in fact a political debate, then I am
wrong, but it appears to me this is a technical debate about whether it is
the responsibility of Arch, or someone else to implement the change. I
would like to suggest that this is a fairly trivial change, so whether Arch
"is supposed to" change the name is irrelevant. The fact remains that,
regardless of whether they are obligated to change it or not, it is an easy
thing to do that would be very positive for a lot of people. A good
solution it seems would be to implement a temporary workaround and apply
pressure upstream for a permanent fix using the weight of Arch's influence.

Devon

Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Myra Nelson <myra.nelson@hughes.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Andrew Hills <hills.as@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Allan McRae <allan@archlinux.org> wrote:
> >> I have found a solution. All mirrors in countries with disputed names
> >> are just removed from the official mirrorlist.
> >
> > I believe servers south of the Mason-Dixon line should be listed under
> > the country name "Confederate States of America". Under this new
> > solution, I propose removing USA servers south of the Mason-Dixon line
> > from the mirrorlist.
> >
> > --Andrew Hills
>
> A little more bikeshed.
>
> I propose all servers not located in the Republic of Texas be removed
> from the mirrorlist. Oh yeah the rest of y'all call us a state now.
>
> Myra
>
> --
> Life's fun when your sick and psychotic!
>
 

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