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Old 06-25-2012, 07:18 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:37 +0200, Arno Gaboury wrote:
> > > Once upon a time, I had a dream OSX would leed to some kind of "semi
> > > open" OS, with lots of dev improvments from the community.
> > >
> > > PPPffff, it was long time ago, and was really naive.
> >
> > Hahaha, when I searched for a successor for my Atari St, my first guess
> > was Apple. It's not naive, since hardware is important, reliable
> > hardware is important, unfortunately my moneybag ships with some
> > limitations . I had the same dream. I won an iPad2 and can't use it,
> > since Vbox + oracle-ext + XP SP2 can't handle it. No jailbreak until
> > now, but I downloaded Absinth a long time ago, I simply wished to test a
> > "legal" iPad for a while. My iPad2 is unable to get iBooks, so every
> > elCheapo Ebookreader has more abilities than my iPad 2, just because I'm
> > using Linux. It's not a fault of Linux, it's spirit of mischief by
> > companies like M$ and Apfel.
>
> PS: Do you know that there's a Apple community for old Apple OSs, I
> guess before Apple switched to Intel? Even "gifted" Apple users don>'t
^^^^^ at least (broken English,
apologize)
> follow the policy of Apple per se.
>
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:44 PM
Jelle van der Waa
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On 25/06/12 21:18, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:37 +0200, Arno Gaboury wrote:
>>>> Once upon a time, I had a dream OSX would leed to some kind of "semi
>>>> open" OS, with lots of dev improvments from the community.
>>>>
>>>> PPPffff, it was long time ago, and was really naive.
>>>
>>> Hahaha, when I searched for a successor for my Atari St, my first guess
>>> was Apple. It's not naive, since hardware is important, reliable
>>> hardware is important, unfortunately my moneybag ships with some
>>> limitations . I had the same dream. I won an iPad2 and can't use it,
>>> since Vbox + oracle-ext + XP SP2 can't handle it. No jailbreak until
>>> now, but I downloaded Absinth a long time ago, I simply wished to test a
>>> "legal" iPad for a while. My iPad2 is unable to get iBooks, so every
>>> elCheapo Ebookreader has more abilities than my iPad 2, just because I'm
>>> using Linux. It's not a fault of Linux, it's spirit of mischief by
>>> companies like M$ and Apfel.
>>
>> PS: Do you know that there's a Apple community for old Apple OSs, I
>> guess before Apple switched to Intel? Even "gifted" Apple users don>'t
> ^^^^^ at least (broken English,
> apologize)
>> follow the policy of Apple per se.
>>
>
>
Could you guys keep it either ontopic and stop ranting about Microsoft
or Apple/OSX:
a) it doesn't help
b) it's a waste of your time, in that time you could have done something
usefull like contributing to an opensource project so that there are
better alternatives

--
Jelle van der Waa
 
Old 06-25-2012, 07:58 PM
Don deJuan
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On 06/25/2012 12:44 PM, Jelle van der Waa wrote:

On 25/06/12 21:18, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:37 +0200, Arno Gaboury wrote:

Once upon a time, I had a dream OSX would leed to some kind of "semi
open" OS, with lots of dev improvments from the community.

PPPffff, it was long time ago, and was really naive.


Hahaha, when I searched for a successor for my Atari St, my first guess
was Apple. It's not naive, since hardware is important, reliable
hardware is important, unfortunately my moneybag ships with some
limitations . I had the same dream. I won an iPad2 and can't use it,
since Vbox + oracle-ext + XP SP2 can't handle it. No jailbreak until
now, but I downloaded Absinth a long time ago, I simply wished to test a
"legal" iPad for a while. My iPad2 is unable to get iBooks, so every
elCheapo Ebookreader has more abilities than my iPad 2, just because I'm
using Linux. It's not a fault of Linux, it's spirit of mischief by
companies like M$ and Apfel.


PS: Do you know that there's a Apple community for old Apple OSs, I
guess before Apple switched to Intel? Even "gifted" Apple users don>'t

^^^^^ at least (broken English,
apologize)

follow the policy of Apple per se.





Could you guys keep it either ontopic and stop ranting about Microsoft
or Apple/OSX:
a) it doesn't help
b) it's a waste of your time, in that time you could have done something
usefull like contributing to an opensource project so that there are
better alternatives



I second that one, it is just noise complaining so much about both,
especially on an Arch MB
 
Old 06-25-2012, 08:05 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:44 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote:
> On 25/06/12 21:18, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:37 +0200, Arno Gaboury wrote:
> >>>> Once upon a time, I had a dream OSX would leed to some kind of "semi
> >>>> open" OS, with lots of dev improvments from the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> PPPffff, it was long time ago, and was really naive.
> >>>
> >>> Hahaha, when I searched for a successor for my Atari St, my first guess
> >>> was Apple. It's not naive, since hardware is important, reliable
> >>> hardware is important, unfortunately my moneybag ships with some
> >>> limitations . I had the same dream. I won an iPad2 and can't use it,
> >>> since Vbox + oracle-ext + XP SP2 can't handle it. No jailbreak until
> >>> now, but I downloaded Absinth a long time ago, I simply wished to test a
> >>> "legal" iPad for a while. My iPad2 is unable to get iBooks, so every
> >>> elCheapo Ebookreader has more abilities than my iPad 2, just because I'm
> >>> using Linux. It's not a fault of Linux, it's spirit of mischief by
> >>> companies like M$ and Apfel.
> >>
> >> PS: Do you know that there's a Apple community for old Apple OSs, I
> >> guess before Apple switched to Intel? Even "gifted" Apple users don>'t
> > ^^^^^ at least (broken English,
> > apologize)
> >> follow the policy of Apple per se.
> >>
> >
> >
> Could you guys keep it either ontopic and stop ranting about Microsoft
> or Apple/OSX:
> a) it doesn't help
> b) it's a waste of your time, in that time you could have done something
> usefull like contributing to an opensource project so that there are
> better alternatives
>

Pardon.

We, at least I shouldn't waste the time of other people.

No excuse for writing useless stuff, you're right, OTOH is it really
time, that could be used for something better?

Some people take "things" more or less serious.
We are on a software mailing list ... software is a joke regarding to
other simple issues such as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_power_skinhead
You might call it polemic and OT for this list. Ok, you might be right,
where is the border? UEFI also is far away from the unconvincable
Neo-Nazis ... well everything so far is good, so there's no reason to be
polemic and in the end we'll chime in "we were not aware about it".
Yes, lets be quiet, sorry again,
Ralf
 
Old 06-25-2012, 08:51 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 22:05 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:44 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote:
> > On 25/06/12 21:18, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > > On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> > >>> On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:37 +0200, Arno Gaboury wrote:
> > >>>> Once upon a time, I had a dream OSX would leed to some kind of "semi
> > >>>> open" OS, with lots of dev improvments from the community.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> PPPffff, it was long time ago, and was really naive.
> > >>>
> > >>> Hahaha, when I searched for a successor for my Atari St, my first guess
> > >>> was Apple. It's not naive, since hardware is important, reliable
> > >>> hardware is important, unfortunately my moneybag ships with some
> > >>> limitations . I had the same dream. I won an iPad2 and can't use it,
> > >>> since Vbox + oracle-ext + XP SP2 can't handle it. No jailbreak until
> > >>> now, but I downloaded Absinth a long time ago, I simply wished to test a
> > >>> "legal" iPad for a while. My iPad2 is unable to get iBooks, so every
> > >>> elCheapo Ebookreader has more abilities than my iPad 2, just because I'm
> > >>> using Linux. It's not a fault of Linux, it's spirit of mischief by
> > >>> companies like M$ and Apfel.
> > >>
> > >> PS: Do you know that there's a Apple community for old Apple OSs, I
> > >> guess before Apple switched to Intel? Even "gifted" Apple users don>'t
> > > ^^^^^ at least (broken English,
> > > apologize)
> > >> follow the policy of Apple per se.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > Could you guys keep it either ontopic and stop ranting about Microsoft
> > or Apple/OSX:
> > a) it doesn't help
> > b) it's a waste of your time, in that time you could have done something
> > usefull like contributing to an opensource project so that there are
> > better alternatives
> >
>
> Pardon.
>
> We, at least I shouldn't waste the time of other people.
>
> No excuse for writing useless stuff, you're right, OTOH is it really
> time, that could be used for something better?
>
> Some people take "things" more or less serious.
> We are on a software mailing list ... software is a joke regarding to
> other simple issues such as
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_power_skinhead
> You might call it polemic and OT for this list. Ok, you might be right,
> where is the border? UEFI also is far away from the unconvincable
> Neo-Nazis ... well everything so far is good, so there's no reason to be
> polemic and in the end we'll chime in "we were not aware about it".
> Yes, lets be quiet, sorry again,
> Ralf

And yes, I'm a German, half of my grandparents would agree with you, the
other half was killed in WWII, because they made too much noise. I've a
criminal record for absence of the German armed forces.

In German we say "wehret den Anfängen".
Yes, I might be polemic, it might be completely useless, but do we know?

UEFI dosen't kill people, so I must be a polemic German idiot. Any
hints, when freedom really is attached and when we should talk about it
are welcome.

Oh, nobody today can get a criminal record for what I've done, the law
changed a little bit, because idiots like me where haunted and today
everybody has got a choice.

Note! Evil companies aren't stupid, they know how far they can go, IOW,
they take care that many people guess that criticism could be confused
with grotesque paranoia or too much noise on a mailing list.

I might be wrong, but you might be wrong too,
Ralf
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:12 PM
Don deJuan
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On 06/25/2012 01:51 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 22:05 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:44 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote:

On 25/06/12 21:18, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 21:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:59 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Mon, 2012-06-25 at 20:37 +0200, Arno Gaboury wrote:

Once upon a time, I had a dream OSX would leed to some kind of "semi
open" OS, with lots of dev improvments from the community.

PPPffff, it was long time ago, and was really naive.


Hahaha, when I searched for a successor for my Atari St, my first guess
was Apple. It's not naive, since hardware is important, reliable
hardware is important, unfortunately my moneybag ships with some
limitations . I had the same dream. I won an iPad2 and can't use it,
since Vbox + oracle-ext + XP SP2 can't handle it. No jailbreak until
now, but I downloaded Absinth a long time ago, I simply wished to test a
"legal" iPad for a while. My iPad2 is unable to get iBooks, so every
elCheapo Ebookreader has more abilities than my iPad 2, just because I'm
using Linux. It's not a fault of Linux, it's spirit of mischief by
companies like M$ and Apfel.


PS: Do you know that there's a Apple community for old Apple OSs, I
guess before Apple switched to Intel? Even "gifted" Apple users don>'t

^^^^^ at least (broken English,
apologize)

follow the policy of Apple per se.





Could you guys keep it either ontopic and stop ranting about Microsoft
or Apple/OSX:
a) it doesn't help
b) it's a waste of your time, in that time you could have done something
usefull like contributing to an opensource project so that there are
better alternatives



Pardon.

We, at least I shouldn't waste the time of other people.

No excuse for writing useless stuff, you're right, OTOH is it really
time, that could be used for something better?

Some people take "things" more or less serious.
We are on a software mailing list ... software is a joke regarding to
other simple issues such as
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_power_skinhead
You might call it polemic and OT for this list. Ok, you might be right,
where is the border? UEFI also is far away from the unconvincable
Neo-Nazis ... well everything so far is good, so there's no reason to be
polemic and in the end we'll chime in "we were not aware about it".
Yes, lets be quiet, sorry again,
Ralf


And yes, I'm a German, half of my grandparents would agree with you, the
other half was killed in WWII, because they made too much noise. I've a
criminal record for absence of the German armed forces.

In German we say "wehret den Anfängen".
Yes, I might be polemic, it might be completely useless, but do we know?

UEFI dosen't kill people, so I must be a polemic German idiot. Any
hints, when freedom really is attached and when we should talk about it
are welcome.

Oh, nobody today can get a criminal record for what I've done, the law
changed a little bit, because idiots like me where haunted and today
everybody has got a choice.

Note! Evil companies aren't stupid, they know how far they can go, IOW,
they take care that many people guess that criticism could be confused
with grotesque paranoia or too much noise on a mailing list.

I might be wrong, but you might be wrong too,
Ralf

WOW!!! I am an America/German Jew myself (1st generation here) and have
to say you're blending so many things unrelated with mediocre issues.
Secure Boot & MS & Apple DO NOT equal Hitler killing Jews!!!


So why not just stick to Arch Linux topics and how they directly relate
to actual issues at hand, or how secure boot would/will effect Arch.
Endless rants of evil this is just like evil that, makes you sound as
nutty as Hitler was.


I honestly do not care if you are right or I am, but these ramblings are
moot to the point the OP sent to the list. To me personally you have
gone past the point of OT, way way past it.


I think everyone who cares about this IS aware of it and if they feel
there is truly something to worry about then actually put action to the
rambles you post, such as following the link. Please keep Hitler out of
these talks, to me it is moronic, not polemic, or you just like stirring
the shit pot to see what floats.
 
Old 06-25-2012, 09:44 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

> I am following this thread, and honestly, who needs to dual boot today?

Most of my systems are single OS but I have a system with atleast 6 OS's
on it and over 10 virtual images on one of them. Granted a couple of the
Os's could be cleaned out now, but only a couple.

On another system I have a HDD with JAVA for rare access to a KVM. I
don't use it for anything else and steer clear of JAVA for day to day.

--
__________________________________________________ ______

Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
__________________________________________________ ______
 
Old 06-25-2012, 10:18 PM
Kevin Chadwick
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

> Yep, no issue for me, my mobos will be based on Intel or AMD.

IMO it's not mainly about you or me, though I'm all for making it
easier to use your own keys, heck I can build my own hardware and I
expect BIOS choice will be the answer.

I ask myself would it have stopped me using Unix. Probably not, putting
a smoothwall firewall in is what pulled me in and it was full of
unpatched holes when I put it in too and was owned pretty quick (before
ipcop came along, switched to that but then landed on OpenBSD after
reports from others of their ipcop being owned and many PDFs).

Depending how easy it is to control. It may well have stopped me
trying out the countless livecds though and I wonder what difference
that may have made. Just reduced knowledge or worse? Then I ask, will
it make someone less stubborn and determined go back to Windows. I'm
guessing it may prevent me letting friends have the choice
or a backup OS on their laptops after I fix them.

I'm sure UEFI will evolve in the right direction though by hook or by
crook. Is it too late to start off without major issue?

--
__________________________________________________ ______

Why not do something good every day and install BOINC.
__________________________________________________ ______
 
Old 06-25-2012, 10:55 PM
Karol Babioch
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

Hi,

seems to be a classical case of Godwin's law .

But back to topic: To be honest I don't understand what all the fuzz is
about. From a security point of view it makes totally sense to
sign/verify every piece of code that gets executed when booting.
Otherwise there will always be some sort of gap in the chain of trust
you try to achieve.

As there is already malware that puts itself into the MBR and gets
executed before any security measures of the operating system (and/or
anti virus software) kicks in, it is absolutely understandable that
Microsoft tries to close this "hole".

By the way: This is also the case for Linux (and for that matter any
other OS). Probably the only reason why we (running anything other than
Windows and/or OS X) don't care about, is that we are not affected by it
in this large scale.

So, in general, we should appreciate technologies, which basically
enable us (for the first time on PCs) to be certain that only code is
executed, which we put there in the first place.

I understand that given Microsoft's record in the past, some of you are
worried, but when looking in the specifications (as Thomas already
pointed out) it is quite clear that Microsoft wants to do the right
thing here.

Personally I couldn't come up with a better way/infrastructure than the
one that is going to be implemented.

I have only the following criticism: Given the relatively low cost of
getting a signed certificate from Microsoft (to my knowledge it will
cost about 100 USD), it might fail to achieve what it is proposed to.
Obviously Microsoft will try to prevent any sort of abuse, but even if
Microsoft only hands out signed certificates after some extensive checks
to trustworthy companies/organisations, it can't control it from there
on any more.

So basically the relative low price of 100 USD will mean that there
might be a lot of organizations with a signed certificate. It would only
take a breach into one of those organizations to get your code booted on
basically every machine. It is something like the current situation with
root CAs in SSL/TLS, but at least from my understanding there is not
necessarily a way of revoking certificates.

Another minor point of criticism from me would be the chosen name. Maybe
some none technical people will hesitate to disable something called
"Secure boot", while they would disable something called "Signed boot"
without putting much thought into it. But probably only time will tell
how this turns out.

Another interesting question that to my knowledge wasn't yet answered:
Is the planned scenario from Red hat even possible with Grub2? As it is
published under GPLv3 it might not be the case, because GPLv3 might
prevent any secrets in form of private keys. This would basically mean
that the proposed scenario is quite useless. Has anyone any insights on
that?

Best regards,
Karol Babioch
 
Old 06-25-2012, 11:29 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Campaign against Secure Boot

On Tue, 2012-06-26 at 00:55 +0200, Karol Babioch wrote:
> Hi,
>
> seems to be a classical case of Godwin's law .

I've got no time to read your mail now, I'll do it later, but regarding
to the first sentences, Godwin's law is another issue. When talking
about different opinions there often is a confusion with fascism. But
the discussion is about "freedom" in FLOSS, a real discussion where
fascism might or might nor be involved. Btw. Mr. Goldwin
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Mike_Godwin_at_Wikimedia_2010.jpg/220px-Mike_Godwin_at_Wikimedia_2010.jpg is not that smart as some people guess that he is, since a rule already pretentious implemented a "thingy". Does Mr. Goldwin stand above others? IMO he's just a smartass. His statement suffers from pretensions. A gobshite is unimpeachably, hence he doesn't have any opinion. To jump on bandwagons is easy.

I might be mistaken regarding to my opinion or any other person might be
mistaken to her/his opinion, but Godwin's law is just contemptuous, it's
absolutely incorrect. Using such a unreflected law is a paradox, since
it's the most evil fascism in itself, because it's a stupid
generalisation.
 

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