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Old 01-28-2012, 04:34 PM
Heiko Baums
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

Am Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:22:05 +0100
schrieb Stefan Wilkens <stefanwilkens@gmail.com>:

> Does this really need to be rehashed yet again? This isn't arch
> related yet these PA back and forths keeps popping up in the mailboxes
> of all the registered people looking for arch-related content.
>
> I didn't follow the original discussion so I cant argument on that
> extent, but the last thing we need on this list is more noise.

I guess there's a reason why this always pops up on several mailing
lists. I would say it's just related to Lennart Poettering who has also
developed systemd which was originally mentioned regarding the mount
behaviour, and who thinks he needs to take part on the discussion
about the FHS and thinks he needs to change every standard.

And both tools shall be declared as a new Linux standard (that's at
least my impression) even if both don't work very well, don't support
every hardware or are just unnecessary (PulseAudio) or have issues
regarding incompatibilities (systemd).

That's the point and that's why you always will read PulseAudio in
threads which are at least partly related to Lennart Poettering or his
software.

If Lennart would either fix all those issues in PulseAudio and systemd,
so that they would really work for everybody and would really bring
advantages for everybody or at least no disadvantages, or if his
software would just be optional and not needed as a dependency by some
distros or DEs, I'm pretty sure this discussion wouldn't always pop up
again.

Heiko
 
Old 01-28-2012, 04:40 PM
Heiko Baums
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

Am Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:34:32 +0000
schrieb Fons Adriaensen <fons@linuxaudio.org>:

> It's part of a more general trend, that of dependencies on
> specific desktop junk trickling down into even basic system
> components and plain apps.

And that's a problem. This should be changed again.

> And it's staring to affect Arch
> as well, be it much less than some others.

The Arch devs fortunately try to avoid this trend as good as possible.
I hope they can keep it up. And I hope that other distros and upstream
developers will rethink soon.

Heiko
 
Old 01-28-2012, 06:14 PM
Leonid Isaev
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 18:24:07 +0100
Heiko Baums <lists@baums-on-web.de> wrote:

> Am Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:05:25 +0000
> schrieb Fons Adriaensen <fons@linuxaudio.org>:
>
> > PA is for 'consumer' use, its scope ends at ITU 5.1 or so.
> > It doesn't support any serious multichannel card (like the
> > the comlete RME series, up to 64+64 channels). Users of such
> > cards don't need or want PA, so it's really not a problem at
> > all.
>
> That's principally what I said. The problem is that several distros and
> DEs like Gnome depend on PulseAudio as far as I know. This is
> what I'm concerned about. Arch Linux and Xfce, what I'm using,
> fortunately don't depend on it.
>
> If PulseAudio was generally only optional and if its developers
> wouldn't try to declare it as a standard, I just wouldn't care.
>
> > If you use such cards you probably have Jack running, and
> > if you really want PA you can configure it as a Jack client.
>
> I'm using an M-Audio Audiophile 24/96, so one of the cheapest
> semi-professional audio cards of this kind. And I admit I primarily use
> it for listening to music, watching videos etc. because of its sound
> quality.
>
> But you're right I don't want and need PulseAudio.
>
> Heiko

Please please please not again!!!

PA is a great consumer thing, and that's exactly what we need. Because noone
cares about "pro" audio solutions which are a nightmare to configure.

PA goes far beyond you KDE/gnome to embedded systems with android and webos.
Having different volume controls for different ergimes is very handy there.

--
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key ID: 164B5A6D
Key fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
 
Old 01-28-2012, 06:23 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

On Sat, 2012-01-28 at 12:37 -0600, C Anthony Risinger wrote:
> dear Lennart and co.,
>
> make sure that your software is 100% optional and free of dependencies
> in either direction.
>
> signed,
>
> Your Friends in the Community

Dear my Friends in the Community,

PA already is optional.

Please test what happens, if you replace it with a dummy package.

$ cat PKGBUILD
pkgname=pulseaudio-dummy
pkgver=1.0
pkgrel=1
pkgdesc="A dummy package that pretends to provide pulseaudio."
arch=('any')
url=""
license=('BSD')
provides=('pulseaudio')
conflicts=('pulseaudio')
source=()

Is anything broken for you, if you replace it by this package?

signed,

Oc Dna Trannel
 
Old 01-28-2012, 06:29 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

On Sat, 2012-01-28 at 13:14 -0600, Leonid Isaev wrote:
> Please please please not again!!!
>
> PA is a great consumer thing, and that's exactly what we need. Because noone
> cares about "pro" audio solutions which are a nightmare to configure.
>
> PA goes far beyond you KDE/gnome to embedded systems with android and webos.
> Having different volume controls for different ergimes is very handy there.

The discussion would stop once and for all, if there would simply be a
dummy package available by the repositories of all the distros who make
PA a dependency.

Neither the OP nor I have started this discussion on several other
lists, where it was a thread some days ago. All the time there are
averaged non-pro-audio users having trouble with PA.

And now I shut up,
Ralf
 
Old 01-28-2012, 06:38 PM
Leonid Isaev
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:29:28 +0100
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 2012-01-28 at 13:14 -0600, Leonid Isaev wrote:
> > Please please please not again!!!
> >
> > PA is a great consumer thing, and that's exactly what we need. Because
> > noone cares about "pro" audio solutions which are a nightmare to configure.
> >
> > PA goes far beyond you KDE/gnome to embedded systems with android and
> > webos. Having different volume controls for different ergimes is very
> > handy there.
>
> The discussion would stop once and for all, if there would simply be a
> dummy package available by the repositories of all the distros who make
> PA a dependency.
>

This idea is plain ridiculous. Please stop embarassing yourself like this.

> Neither the OP nor I have started this discussion on several other
> lists, where it was a thread some days ago. All the time there are
> averaged non-pro-audio users having trouble with PA.
>
> And now I shut up,
> Ralf
>
>
>



--
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key ID: 164B5A6D
Key fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
 
Old 01-28-2012, 07:25 PM
Heiko Baums
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

Am Sat, 28 Jan 2012 13:14:47 -0600
schrieb Leonid Isaev <lisaev@umail.iu.edu>:

> PA is a great consumer thing, and that's exactly what we need.

That may be exactly what you need, but not what we need. Otherwise we
all could stick with Windows. You can read your e-mails and write some
letters with Windows. So why using Linux?

> Because noone cares about "pro" audio solutions which are a nightmare
> to configure.

I don't need to configure anything to get my M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 to
get running perfectly with ALSA. And all the pro audio software work
without any configuration out-of-the-box with this card and ALSA.

What's not working with this card is PulseAudio, and to get it working
with PulseAudio somehow I need to cripple it down to stereo with a
nightmare of configuration.

Heiko
 
Old 01-28-2012, 07:40 PM
Heiko Baums
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

Am Sat, 28 Jan 2012 12:37:14 -0600
schrieb C Anthony Risinger <anthony@xtfx.me>:

> is this roughly message you want to send?

No, this is not the message, and I guess you totally misunderstood me.

The problem is that PulseAudio is not working with every sound and
audio card, but users are forced to install it as a dependency by some
distros and/or DEs, even if it doesn't support several audio cards. And
the problem is that this leads to being called PulseAudio as a standard
even if it doesn't support a lot of sound and audio cards, so that
sound probably wouldn't work with those cards some day.

And the problem is upstream's reaction on bug reports about this, that
they say something like "it's ALSA's fault that our software doesn't
work with your audio card" even if ALSA supports these card perfectly
out-of-the-box, etc. So to me it just sounds like "We want our software
to be a standard but we just don't care about hardware we don't
understand, and we just ignore it."

That are the problems.

Like I said before, if PulseAudio was just another piece of software
which I can install or not, I totally wouldn't care about it. But as
soon as someone forces me to installing this, I do care.

Well, I'm currently using Arch Linux and Xfce. So I'm not, yet, forced
to install it. But I'd like to keep it this way.

> i think if you read a bit more ... eg. man pages, documentation,
> introductory blogs/etc, and not rants by random-equally-infuriated
> users ... you may find some reason, and *maybe* even some use. ftw,
> PA idles at 0% CPU for me, and when streaming over the network to an
> XBMC sound system, it uses a steady average 1-2% (actually brief
> intermittent bursts at 10% or so) ... nothing outrageous ...meanwhile,
> FF consumes 3-5% to run flash, and flash consumes 8-10% to run Pandora
> ... PA is the lightest link in the chain.

I didn't say anything about PulseAudio's CPU usage. That was someone
else. I just answered that 2% CPU usage at idle time would be too much.
Actually I don't know how many resources it needs.

Heiko
 
Old 01-28-2012, 08:05 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default PulseAudio again (was: change in mount behaviour?)

On Sat, 2012-01-28 at 20:25 +0000, Fons Adriaensen wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 01:14:47PM -0600, Leonid Isaev wrote:
>
> > PA is a great consumer thing, and that's exactly what we need.
>
> PA is indeed a great consumer thing, and it may be what
> you need. It is definitely not what some others need.
>
> > Because noone cares about "pro" audio solutions
>
> You mean _you_ don't.
>
> > which are a nightmare to configure.
>
> Very strange that you claim to have some knowledge on
> something you don't care about. Which 'pro' audio HW
> have you actually used ? On what experience is is your
> 'nightmare to configure' comment based ?
>
> Having used a significant percentage of what is available,
> and earning my daily pizza by providing services and
> consultancy mostly based on Linux audio using 'pro' HW,
> I can only say that your comment is pure nonsense.

I need to chime in here. (Hard to shut up) After some conversation off
list I agree that a dummy package provided by the repositories might be
a less good idea.

But I noticed some lacks of knowhow.

E.g. it's not a problem for a classic Jack only. Cards as the Envy24
ones (the OP already tried to explain this) or the RME (Fons already
mentioned it) already don't work with PA.

So if even software like GDM depends to PA (it might be a dependency of
a dependency), it's ridiculous. Of cause, it's possible to use another
login manager, but someday too many apps might depend on PA, that don't
need PA.

The different "solutions" to turn off PA often don't work. "autospawn =
no" might work for Arch Linux, but AFAIK some distros still kept
disadvantages of PA when using this.

Cheers,

Ralf
 

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