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Old 12-14-2011, 09:39 PM
Thomas Dziedzic
 
Default a plea for python 2

"python2 will refer to some version of Python 2.x
python3 will refer to some version of Python 3.x
python should refer to the same target as python2 but may refer to
python3 on some bleeding edge distributions"

above snippet taken from: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:54 PM
Sander Jansen
 
Default a plea for python 2

I think the question was whether it was a "good idea" (tm) to alias
python to python3 instead of python2. Then again, you can easily
change the alias yourself...

Sander

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 4:39 PM, Thomas Dziedzic <gostrc@gmail.com> wrote:
> "python2 will refer to some version of Python 2.x
> python3 will refer to some version of Python 3.x
> python should refer to the same target as python2 but may refer to
> python3 on some bleeding edge distributions"
>
> above snippet taken from: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:57 PM
Oon-Ee Ng
 
Default a plea for python 2

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 6:54 AM, Sander Jansen <s.jansen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the question was whether it was a "good idea" (tm) to alias
> python to python3 instead of python2. Then again, you can easily
> change the alias yourself...
>
> Sander
>

Bottom-posting, please. And I believe rather than discuss this all
over again referencing the original discussion(s) about this would
help? I know there was one on this ML and another on the forums (no
time to look them up now, sorry).
 
Old 12-14-2011, 09:58 PM
David Rosenstrauch
 
Default a plea for python 2

On 12/14/2011 05:24 PM, Evan Martin wrote:

1) Is it intentional that I am unable to use software from upstream
like Django unmodified? Am I expected to only install software
from the Arch repositories, where it has been patched by Arch devs
to work on Arch? (See below for more on Django.)


I don't profess to speak for the Arch devs - so please take the
following as my opinion, not the "official Arch answer".



But as a long-time Arch user, my opinion would be that the answer to
both those questions is a) yes, and b) I don't really see that as a problem.


Many/most distros apply some patches to upstream software. Arch does as
well, but generally tries to do so as minimally as possible.


In addition, Arch tries to run as bleeding-edge software as possible.
That's resulting in the situation you're describing: Arch uses Python3,
but some upstream packages have not been upgraded for that yet. So Arch
packages need to be temporarily patched to get around that. Otherwise
the packages will be broken. Seems like a reasonable reason to apply a
patch to me.


Also, I think the general intention with Arch is that you will install
software from packages in the repositories (or the AUR). It's not
generally expected (or supported) for you to randomly install software
directly from source code.



So probably the "Arch way" to solve the issue posed in your question
above would be:


* Use ABS to get a copy of the Arch PKGBUILD for whatever package is in
question


* Create your own copy/version of that PKGBUILD and tweak as needed to
support whatever non-standard functionality you're trying to achieve


* Build the package and install

* Realize that you're on your own from here on out. If you're running a
non-standard version of a package, then the responsibility for
supporting it / fixing incompatibilities & bugs is yours. You can't
expect that your non-standard package will automatically remain
compatible with all future updates to the standard Arch packages.



Dissent welcome.

HTH,

DR
 
Old 12-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Thomas Bächler
 
Default a plea for python 2

Am 14.12.2011 23:24, schrieb Evan Martin:
> What I don't understand is why you're manually patching upstream
> software to rewrite references from /usr/bin/python to
> /usr/bin/python2. This sort of forking is exactly the sort of
> divergence (like how Ubuntu modified their GTK to add their own
> specific hooks) that I was fleeing from when I came to Arch.

There's no forking here. Python 2 is end-of-life, python 3 is current.
Applications that set a 'python' shebang, but require 'python2' are
*broken*, we *fix* them.
 
Old 12-14-2011, 10:00 PM
Karol Blazewicz
 
Default a plea for python 2

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 11:57 PM, Oon-Ee Ng <ngoonee.talk@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 6:54 AM, Sander Jansen <s.jansen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think the question was whether it was a "good idea" (tm) to alias
>> python to python3 instead of python2. Then again, you can easily
>> change the alias yourself...
>>
>> Sander
>>
>
> Bottom-posting, please. And I believe rather than discuss this all
> over again referencing the original discussion(s) about this would
> help? I know there was one on this ML and another on the forums (no
> time to look them up now, sorry).

http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2010-October/016807.html
http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-announce/2011-February/000276.html
 
Old 12-14-2011, 10:05 PM
Thomas Dziedzic
 
Default a plea for python 2

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
> Am 14.12.2011 23:24, schrieb Evan Martin:
>> What I don't understand is why you're manually patching upstream
>> software to rewrite references from /usr/bin/python to
>> /usr/bin/python2. *This sort of forking is exactly the sort of
>> divergence (like how Ubuntu modified their GTK to add their own
>> specific hooks) that I was fleeing from when I came to Arch.
>
> There's no forking here. Python 2 is end-of-life, python 3 is current.
> Applications that set a 'python' shebang, but require 'python2' are
> *broken*, we *fix* them.
>

This is how I feel about the current situation also.

The pep clearly defines that you should only be using python2 or
python3 in your shebangs, and that python should be ideally used only
to invoke interactive sessions.

The fact that programmers and distro python packagers ignore this is
not our fault.
 
Old 12-14-2011, 10:19 PM
Sander Jansen
 
Default a plea for python 2

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Dziedzic <gostrc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>> Am 14.12.2011 23:24, schrieb Evan Martin:
>>> What I don't understand is why you're manually patching upstream
>>> software to rewrite references from /usr/bin/python to
>>> /usr/bin/python2. *This sort of forking is exactly the sort of
>>> divergence (like how Ubuntu modified their GTK to add their own
>>> specific hooks) that I was fleeing from when I came to Arch.
>>
>> There's no forking here. Python 2 is end-of-life, python 3 is current.
>> Applications that set a 'python' shebang, but require 'python2' are
>> *broken*, we *fix* them.
>>
>
> This is how I feel about the current situation also.
>
> The pep clearly defines that you should only be using python2 or
> python3 in your shebangs, and that python should be ideally used only
> to invoke interactive sessions.
>
> The fact that programmers and distro python packagers ignore this is
> not our fault.

"Until the conventions described in this PEP are more widely adopted,
having python invoke python2 will remain the recommended option."
 
Old 12-14-2011, 10:44 PM
Thomas Dziedzic
 
Default a plea for python 2

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Sander Jansen <s.jansen@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Dziedzic <gostrc@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>> Am 14.12.2011 23:24, schrieb Evan Martin:
>>>> What I don't understand is why you're manually patching upstream
>>>> software to rewrite references from /usr/bin/python to
>>>> /usr/bin/python2. *This sort of forking is exactly the sort of
>>>> divergence (like how Ubuntu modified their GTK to add their own
>>>> specific hooks) that I was fleeing from when I came to Arch.
>>>
>>> There's no forking here. Python 2 is end-of-life, python 3 is current.
>>> Applications that set a 'python' shebang, but require 'python2' are
>>> *broken*, we *fix* them.
>>>
>>
>> This is how I feel about the current situation also.
>>
>> The pep clearly defines that you should only be using python2 or
>> python3 in your shebangs, and that python should be ideally used only
>> to invoke interactive sessions.
>>
>> The fact that programmers and distro python packagers ignore this is
>> not our fault.
>
> "Until the conventions described in this PEP are more widely adopted,
> having python invoke python2 will remain the recommended option."

The full quote is:

"More conservative distributions that are less willing to tolerate
breakage of third party scripts continue to alias it to python2. Until
the conventions described in this PEP are more widely adopted, having
python invoke python2 will remain the recommended option."

Also, when do you suppose "widely adopted" will occur? If you leave
space for interpretation, then expect opinions that don't match yours.
This is a recommendation and someone is going to have to take the
first step eventually.
Here is a metaphor in the spirit of the season:
Arch is the snowplow that is shoveling the snow to the sides of the
road to make it easier for other distros to pass.

I see this thread turning into the threads when it was first
announced, and I refuse to go down that path, again...

Here is the python maintainer's blog post about it:
http://allanmcrae.com/2011/03/the-python2-pep/

Cheers!
 
Old 12-15-2011, 02:28 AM
Ray Rashif
 
Default a plea for python 2

On 15 December 2011 07:44, Thomas Dziedzic <gostrc@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Sander Jansen <s.jansen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Thomas Dziedzic <gostrc@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 5:00 PM, Thomas Bächler <thomas@archlinux.org> wrote:
>>>> Am 14.12.2011 23:24, schrieb Evan Martin:
>>>>> What I don't understand is why you're manually patching upstream
>>>>> software to rewrite references from /usr/bin/python to
>>>>> /usr/bin/python2. *This sort of forking is exactly the sort of
>>>>> divergence (like how Ubuntu modified their GTK to add their own
>>>>> specific hooks) that I was fleeing from when I came to Arch.
>>>>
>>>> There's no forking here. Python 2 is end-of-life, python 3 is current.
>>>> Applications that set a 'python' shebang, but require 'python2' are
>>>> *broken*, we *fix* them.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is how I feel about the current situation also.
>>>
>>> The pep clearly defines that you should only be using python2 or
>>> python3 in your shebangs, and that python should be ideally used only
>>> to invoke interactive sessions.
>>>
>>> The fact that programmers and distro python packagers ignore this is
>>> not our fault.
>>
>> "Until the conventions described in this PEP are more widely adopted,
>> having python invoke python2 will remain the recommended option."
>
> The full quote is:
>
> "More conservative distributions that are less willing to tolerate
> breakage of third party scripts continue to alias it to python2. Until
> the conventions described in this PEP are more widely adopted, having
> python invoke python2 will remain the recommended option."
>
> Also, when do you suppose "widely adopted" will occur? If you leave
> space for interpretation, then expect opinions that don't match yours.
> This is a recommendation and someone is going to have to take the
> first step eventually.
> Here is a metaphor in the spirit of the season:
> Arch is the snowplow that is shoveling the snow to the sides of the
> road to make it easier for other distros to pass.
>
> I see this thread turning into the threads when it was first
> announced, and I refuse to go down that path, again...
>
> Here is the python maintainer's blog post about it:
> http://allanmcrae.com/2011/03/the-python2-pep/
>
> Cheers!

To sum up the two Thomas' replies above (which have been mentioned a
number of times before):

1) Arch faces the pain before anyone else.
2) Arch fixes stuff for real, _not_ "enhances". (which is what you
mean by Ubuntu-like patching)

Using /usr/bin/python is no longer recommended as upstream has
realised the mess they themselves have made. All software developers
who consider themselves up-to-date with technology should adopt these
latest changes, or choose to be backdated.

--
GPG/PGP ID: C0711BF1
 

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