FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
» Video Reviews

» Linux Archive

Linux-archive is a website aiming to archive linux email lists and to make them easily accessible for linux users/developers.


» Sponsor

» Partners

» Sponsor


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 10-20-2010, 04:23 AM
"Dr. Robert Marmorstein"
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

Just a little story that is relevant to this discussion....

I ran into a problem with python and proprietary software earlier today, but
was able (through much tribulaton) to work around it. Even after most open-
source code is using python 3, a lot of proprietary stuff may still depend on
python 2 and it won't be easy to switch it. This is something we may want to
consider before we retire python2 altogether.

I was setting up a new printer (an HP Laserjet p1120w) which works with hplip,
but requires a proprietary plugin from HP's server. The hp-toolbox and hp-
plugin utilities that are the interface finstalling the proprietary plugin are
both written in python (with a lot of shell script mixed in for good measure).

The PKGBUILD for hplip seems to do the right thing in that it uses python2 to
execute the hp-toolbox code. But the plugin itself arrives as a self-
extracting executable that unpacks a python2 script which it executes using
the system python (i.e. python3 on my system). This caused the installer to
crash, preventing me from installing the printer driver.

Furthermore, after an unsuccessful install, the archive deletes itself and any
of the files that were in it.

Fortuately, I discovered that if you extract the plugin-archive by hand (you
have to wget it first), it provides a compile flag that waits for user input
after extraction, but before installation. I was able to access the extracted
plugin install script and replace "python" with "python2".

I managed to get the printer installed and set up (and print my lecture notes
just in time for class) without any further problems.

On Tuesday, October 19, 2010 10:00:29 pm Max Countryman wrote:
> Apologies, link cut in original quote:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2008-February/011910.html
>
> On Oct 19, 2010, at 9:58 PM, Max Countryman wrote:
> >> I failed to find a reference, but I seem to remember the Python team
> >> deciding at some point that they intended to keep the name "python"
> >> for the Python 2.X binaries perpetually, and require Python 3.X to be
> >> invoked as "python3". Arch might be alone in making this change, and
> >> inconsistent with other Python distributions. EDIT: I can't find a
> >> conclusive decision but here is one discussion on the subject:
> >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2008-February/0...
> >
> > There is any interesting conversation taking place over at Hacker News:
> > http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1808840
 
Old 10-20-2010, 04:31 AM
Mithrandir
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

Max Countryman <maxc <at> me.com> writes:

>
> > I failed to find a reference, but I seem to remember the Python team
deciding at some point that they
> intended to keep the name "python" for the Python 2.X binaries perpetually,
and require Python 3.X to be
> invoked as "python3". Arch might be alone in making this change, and
inconsistent with other Python distributions.
> > EDIT: I can't find a conclusive decision but here is one discussion on the
subject: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2008-February/0...
>
> There is any interesting conversation taking place over at Hacker News:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1808840
>
>


Ha ha! We posted at virtually the same time! (Or not...)
 
Old 10-20-2010, 07:24 AM
"Stefano Z."
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

anyone know if reportlab does work with python3 ?
 
Old 10-20-2010, 11:14 AM
Max Countryman
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

Oh is there another thread on this list? My apologies if so! I just joined earlier yesterday.

On Oct 20, 2010, at 12:31 AM, Mithrandir wrote:

> Ha ha! We posted at virtually the same time! (Or not...)
 
Old 10-20-2010, 01:52 PM
Hilton Medeiros
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 04:31:17 +0000 (UTC)
Mithrandir <mithrandiragain@lavabit.com> wrote:

> Max Countryman <maxc <at> me.com> writes:
>
> >
> > > I failed to find a reference, but I seem to remember the Python
> > > team
> deciding at some point that they
> > intended to keep the name "python" for the Python 2.X binaries
> > perpetually,
> and require Python 3.X to be
> > invoked as "python3". Arch might be alone in making this change, and
> inconsistent with other Python distributions.
> > > EDIT: I can't find a conclusive decision but here is one
> > > discussion on the
> subject:
> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2008-February/0...
> >
> > There is any interesting conversation taking place over at Hacker
> > News:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1808840
> >
> >
>
>
> Ha ha! We posted at virtually the same time! (Or not...)
>

HackerNews, Slashdot, ...:
- Someone post an announcement with 10 lines;
- They read it (or not) and think that that is all the information
behind the story;
- They furiously start typing the first thing that pops in their mind;
- By the time you (Mithrandir, in this case) posted a more in-depth
post, the majority had already run to the next news.

Also, the... bitching there is completely nonsense. I can't believe
they know Linux or even python well enough judging by what they say
about developing _difficulties_ because of this move.

AFAIK, with python is easy as hell to build a local/virtual environment
for any python version... I don't get it. Anyway, nothing to see there
for this post, sadly.

Congratulations to Allan, devs and tus for the move!

Cheers,
Hilton
 
Old 10-20-2010, 01:59 PM
Max Countryman
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

I think that my only concern at this point is how the Python development team sees the future of the binary: if the python and python3 convention is kept I worry about the ease of portability apropos to development under Arch.

For further in-depth discussion of the overall move the comments of the post on HN are excellent and illustrate clearly both sides.

On Oct 20, 2010, at 9:52, Hilton Medeiros <medeiros.hilton@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 04:31:17 +0000 (UTC)
> Mithrandir <mithrandiragain@lavabit.com> wrote:
>
>> Max Countryman <maxc <at> me.com> writes:
>>
>>>
>>>> I failed to find a reference, but I seem to remember the Python
>>>> team
>> deciding at some point that they
>>> intended to keep the name "python" for the Python 2.X binaries
>>> perpetually,
>> and require Python 3.X to be
>>> invoked as "python3". Arch might be alone in making this change, and
>> inconsistent with other Python distributions.
>>>> EDIT: I can't find a conclusive decision but here is one
>>>> discussion on the
>> subject:
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2008-February/0...
>>>
>>> There is any interesting conversation taking place over at Hacker
>>> News:
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1808840
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> Ha ha! We posted at virtually the same time! (Or not...)
>>
>
> HackerNews, Slashdot, ...:
> - Someone post an announcement with 10 lines;
> - They read it (or not) and think that that is all the information
> behind the story;
> - They furiously start typing the first thing that pops in their mind;
> - By the time you (Mithrandir, in this case) posted a more in-depth
> post, the majority had already run to the next news.
>
> Also, the... bitching there is completely nonsense. I can't believe
> they know Linux or even python well enough judging by what they say
> about developing _difficulties_ because of this move.
>
> AFAIK, with python is easy as hell to build a local/virtual environment
> for any python version... I don't get it. Anyway, nothing to see there
> for this post, sadly.
>
> Congratulations to Allan, devs and tus for the move!
>
> Cheers,
> Hilton
 
Old 10-20-2010, 02:03 PM
C Anthony Risinger
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Hilton Medeiros
<medeiros.hilton@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 04:31:17 +0000 (UTC)
> Mithrandir <mithrandiragain@lavabit.com> wrote:
>
>> Max Countryman <maxc <at> me.com> writes:
>>
>> >
>> > > I failed to find a reference, but I seem to remember the Python
>> > > team
>> deciding at some point that they
>> > intended to keep the name "python" for the Python 2.X binaries
>> > perpetually,
>> and require Python 3.X to be
>> > invoked as "python3". Arch might be alone in making this change, and
>> inconsistent with other Python distributions.
>> > > EDIT: I can't find a conclusive decision but here is one
>> > > discussion on the
>> subject:
>> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-3000/2008-February/0...
>> >
>> > There is any interesting conversation taking place over at Hacker
>> > News:
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1808840
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> Ha ha! We posted at virtually the same time! (Or not...)
>>
>
> HackerNews, Slashdot, ...:
> - Someone post an announcement with 10 lines;
> - They read it (or not) and think that that is all the information
> *behind the story;
> - They furiously start typing the first thing that pops in their mind;
> - By the time you (Mithrandir, in this case) posted a more in-depth
> *post, the majority had already run to the next news.
>
> Also, the... bitching there is completely nonsense. I can't believe
> they know Linux or even python well enough judging by what they say
> about developing _difficulties_ because of this move.
>
> AFAIK, with python is easy as hell to build a local/virtual environment
> for any python version... I don't get it. Anyway, nothing to see there
> for this post, sadly.
>
> Congratulations to Allan, devs and tus for the move!

yeah, concur... ultimately i've had few problems; the couple i did
have with pyjamas/pyjs i was able to fix pretty quickly.

it's amusing sensing the hostility of some comments around the net;
personally it just seems like the same old same old... following
upstream.

i like the python2.7, python2, python3.1, python3, etc, scheme... i
think this makes it very easy for developers to select the specific
interpreter they need, if any. i hope this trend becomes/is defacto.
if you are just running `python`, you should be prepared for the
environment ambiguity it entails.

C Anthony
 
Old 10-20-2010, 02:05 PM
C Anthony Risinger
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:03 AM, C Anthony Risinger <anthony@extof.me> wrote:
>
> i like the python2.7, python2, python3.1, python3, etc, scheme... i
> think this makes it very easy for developers to select the specific
> interpreter they need, if any. *i hope this trend becomes/is defacto.
> if you are just running `python`, you should be prepared for the
> environment ambiguity it entails.

beh, i meant to add that the `python` name should always link to the
latest release; i don't believe in catering to 'the way it is now'.

C Anthony
 
Old 10-20-2010, 02:14 PM
Max Countryman
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

But is that what Python development has decided?

On Oct 20, 2010, at 10:05, C Anthony Risinger <anthony@extof.me> wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:03 AM, C Anthony Risinger <anthony@extof.me> wrote:
>>
>> i like the python2.7, python2, python3.1, python3, etc, scheme... i
>> think this makes it very easy for developers to select the specific
>> interpreter they need, if any. i hope this trend becomes/is defacto.
>> if you are just running `python`, you should be prepared for the
>> environment ambiguity it entails.
>
> beh, i meant to add that the `python` name should always link to the
> latest release; i don't believe in catering to 'the way it is now'.
>
> C Anthony
 
Old 10-20-2010, 02:32 PM
C Anthony Risinger
 
Default Python 3 Rationale?

On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Max Countryman <maxc@me.com> wrote:
>
> But is that what Python development has decided?

I'm not sure what they have recommended. Ultimately it's up to the
distros to decide such things; I have seen that written more then once
by BFDL and friends.

I think what Arch is doing is perfectly reasonable; if you, as a
developer, or even a user, run the `python` binary, you should not
expect any assurances, as you are making assumptions about the target
environment. If your app requires a particular major or minor version
to operate correctly, then make this clear in the shebang, throw an
exception, etc... imo, catering to sluggish apps that are not py3k
compatible and not active enough to even acknowledge the onset of
py3k, is a waste of time.

C Anthony
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 04:19 AM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright 2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org