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Old 09-16-2010, 06:59 PM
Nathan Wayde
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
[..]

Ok a few things here....

1. There are a *few* instances where having a local mirror is warranted


not sure where you were going with that but i feel like you've left a
bit off of that sentence.



2. There are many, many, many packages that are in the repos that *you*
don't use! Every time you download one of these packages it is wasted
bandwidth!


you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.


3. Mirror bandwidth is not free! Every time you are downloading unused
packages you are wasting the mirrors money! Why waste money? (Keep point
1 in mind)


since i already payed for that bandwidth and utilize it for other
purposes it is in fact free.



4. @Fess you and a few other people do not make the community.


not sure what point you're trying to make here


5. The majority of the community will agree that hosting a local mirror
is silly considering that there are alternatives!


the majority of people at least in the western cultures will agree that
paedophilia is sick. the majority of these people don't know what
paedophilia is. again not sure where you're going with that so i thought
I'd make some wild pointless claims as well.



6. I am quite sure that mirror operators are not and will not be happy
with users downloading gigs of data a month so they can have their own
local mirror.


when you become a mirror operator or bring actual evidence to the table
you will have a say in this.



7. Remember, the local mirrors are generously mirroring for us. They are
under *no obligation* to do so! Treat them with respect!


this doesn't make any sense.


8. If point 1 applies, then those people should be more than capable of
producing their own scripts.





we are. but you see, the point you decided to side-step is that we're
being told that the existing script was bad, now, if it was bad fair
enough but no-one can(or will) tell us what was so wrong about it;
result: you're now forcing everyone that needs to create their own
script to do so and thus risk causing the same problems the old script
cause because as I've stated multiple times - no-one is telling us(me)
what the problems are with that script. it's all well and good to say
this or that is bad but if you're not going to tell anyone what's bad
about it then we'd all be better off if you hadn't opened your mouth at all.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 07:10 PM
Matthew Gyurgyik
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On 09/16/2010 02:59 PM, Nathan Wayde wrote:

On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
[..]

Ok a few things here....

1. There are a *few* instances where having a local mirror is warranted


not sure where you were going with that but i feel like you've left a
bit off of that sentence.



2. There are many, many, many packages that are in the repos that *you*
don't use! Every time you download one of these packages it is wasted
bandwidth!


you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.


3. Mirror bandwidth is not free! Every time you are downloading unused
packages you are wasting the mirrors money! Why waste money? (Keep point
1 in mind)


since i already payed for that bandwidth and utilize it for other
purposes it is in fact free.
You most certainly do not pay for the Mirror's bandwidth! Just look at
this article: http://lwn.net/Articles/178618/



4. @Fess you and a few other people do not make the community.


not sure what point you're trying to make here


5. The majority of the community will agree that hosting a local mirror
is silly considering that there are alternatives!


the majority of people at least in the western cultures will agree
that paedophilia is sick. the majority of these people don't know what
paedophilia is. again not sure where you're going with that so i
thought I'd make some wild pointless claims as well.



6. I am quite sure that mirror operators are not and will not be happy
with users downloading gigs of data a month so they can have their own
local mirror.


when you become a mirror operator or bring actual evidence to the
table you will have a say in this.
Again look here: http://lwn.net/Articles/178618/ or ask any admin in
charge of bandwidth operations.
Aaron if you are reading this, would mind sharing the bandwidth cost for
the arch servers?



7. Remember, the local mirrors are generously mirroring for us. They are
under *no obligation* to do so! Treat them with respect!


this doesn't make any sense.


8. If point 1 applies, then those people should be more than capable of
producing their own scripts.





we are. but you see, the point you decided to side-step is that we're
being told that the existing script was bad, now, if it was bad fair
enough but no-one can(or will) tell us what was so wrong about it;
result: you're now forcing everyone that needs to create their own
script to do so and thus risk causing the same problems the old script
cause because as I've stated multiple times - no-one is telling us(me)
what the problems are with that script. it's all well and good to say
this or that is bad but if you're not going to tell anyone what's bad
about it then we'd all be better off if you hadn't opened your mouth
at all.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 07:40 PM
Nathan Wayde
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On 16/09/10 20:10, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:

On 09/16/2010 02:59 PM, Nathan Wayde wrote:

On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
[..]

Ok a few things here....

1. There are a *few* instances where having a local mirror is warranted


not sure where you were going with that but i feel like you've left a
bit off of that sentence.


2. There are many, many, many packages that are in the repos that *you*
don't use! Every time you download one of these packages it is wasted
bandwidth!


you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.


3. Mirror bandwidth is not free! Every time you are downloading unused
packages you are wasting the mirrors money! Why waste money? (Keep point
1 in mind)


since i already payed for that bandwidth and utilize it for other
purposes it is in fact free.

You most certainly do not pay for the Mirror's bandwidth! Just look at
this article: http://lwn.net/Articles/178618/


my contract said I paid for it...




[...]



6. I am quite sure that mirror operators are not and will not be happy
with users downloading gigs of data a month so they can have their own
local mirror.


when you become a mirror operator or bring actual evidence to the
table you will have a say in this.

Again look here: http://lwn.net/Articles/178618/ or ask any admin in
charge of bandwidth operations.
Aaron if you are reading this, would mind sharing the bandwidth cost for
the arch servers?



[...]





At first I typed out a reply but I deleted it because this thread is
already dead so I will simply restate my question that no-one has an
answer to.


What were the issues with that wiki page and the script. I'd like to
know so I don't cause these *problems* for Tier-1 mirrors I sync from as
I have to implement my own script which is based on the bad script that
was in the wiki.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 07:48 PM
Tavian Barnes
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

>> You most certainly do not pay for the Mirror's bandwidth! Just look at
>> this article: http://lwn.net/Articles/178618/
>
> my contract said I paid for it...

What? Sure, you may pay for n GB of download, but the mirror still
has to pay for n GB of _upload_ in order to serve it to you.

--
Tavian Barnes
 
Old 09-16-2010, 07:54 PM
Stefan Erik Wilkens
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

> On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
> you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.

But can we at least say that grabbing packages without using them is
wasting mirror bandwidth, and thus not something we want. In fact,
something that should be frowned upon?
 
Old 09-16-2010, 11:16 PM
Steve Holmes
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 09:54:16PM +0200, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:
> > On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
> > you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.
>
> But can we at least say that grabbing packages without using them is
> wasting mirror bandwidth, and thus not something we want. In fact,
> something that should be frowned upon?

It sounds like this Nathan fella doesn't grasp the concept that he
pays for his own bandwidth and the mirror operator has to pay for the
bandwidth used by the mirror server. Sure Nathan can squander his
bandwidth however he wants but the mirror operators have to spread
their bandwidth around for all of us to get our normal updates and of
course, the cost has to be shouldered by someone.

Now, I favor being able to sync up a whole mirror for local use if you
are a network admin or local distributer who needs to do installs and
doesn't have a network connection available to do the net installs.
Bur for the rest of us, I like the original solution posted at the top
of this thread for machines with like architecture and similar package
configurations. Thanks again, David for those scripts.
 
Old 09-16-2010, 11:21 PM
Ng Oon-Ee
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 16:16 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 09:54:16PM +0200, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:
> > > On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
> > > you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.
> >
> > But can we at least say that grabbing packages without using them is
> > wasting mirror bandwidth, and thus not something we want. In fact,
> > something that should be frowned upon?
>
> It sounds like this Nathan fella doesn't grasp the concept that he
> pays for his own bandwidth and the mirror operator has to pay for the
> bandwidth used by the mirror server. Sure Nathan can squander his
> bandwidth however he wants but the mirror operators have to spread
> their bandwidth around for all of us to get our normal updates and of
> course, the cost has to be shouldered by someone.

While my initial reaction to the thread was to do exactly this (point
out that Nathan does not seem to understand that mirrors have to pay for
bandwidth as well, and also that the linked article was obviously not
read) I think its a bit out-of-line to dismiss him as this 'Nathan
fella'. Where I come from such terms would only be used on a brat or
delinquent, slightly derogatory in my opinion.

Not a comment on the CONTENT but on the STYLE =).
 
Old 09-17-2010, 03:54 AM
Nathan Wayde
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On 17/09/10 00:21, Ng Oon-Ee wrote:

On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 16:16 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 09:54:16PM +0200, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:

On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.


But can we at least say that grabbing packages without using them is
wasting mirror bandwidth, and thus not something we want. In fact,
something that should be frowned upon?


It sounds like this Nathan fella doesn't grasp the concept that he
pays for his own bandwidth and the mirror operator has to pay for the
bandwidth used by the mirror server. Sure Nathan can squander his
bandwidth however he wants but the mirror operators have to spread
their bandwidth around for all of us to get our normal updates and of
course, the cost has to be shouldered by someone.


While my initial reaction to the thread was to do exactly this (point
out that Nathan does not seem to understand that mirrors have to pay for
bandwidth as well, and also that the linked article was obviously not
read) I think its a bit out-of-line to dismiss him as this 'Nathan
fella'. Where I come from such terms would only be used on a brat or
delinquent, slightly derogatory in my opinion.

Not a comment on the CONTENT but on the STYLE =).




like I said, I'd deleted my reply but here I'll state it again...

I already run a mirror for other purposes, if the Tier-1 has a problem
with that then they should block arm.konnichi.com .


since I already run that for other purposes I sync from arm.konnichi.com
- in-case you didn't realise I own it. I'm a idiot, that much is no
secret, so maybe someone can enlighten me... like I said already, I
already run a mirror for other purposes, if I want to waste the
bandwidth of my mirror that's my business because I already paid for it,
but the important question is the one that's always ignored in favour of
petty politics and that is: I want to know specifically what was wrong
with that script so I as a mirror operator can take the necessary
measures to make sure I'm not abusing the Tier-1 from which I sync.
 
Old 09-17-2010, 07:34 AM
Stefan Erik Wilkens
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

Well then the situation is rather simple, isn't it.

If the amount of traffic a private local mirror generates for the
official mirror is greater than the amount of traffic that any local
clients (excluding any "other purposes" unrelated to the sync process
of course) generate for this local mirror, then obviously something is
very wrong. This should be fairly easy to determine and fairly easy to
attack (sync less frequently, increase the amount of clients syncing
from your local server or perhaps give up the local mirror
completely).

This isn't a matter of politics at all, it's plain and simple math
where the outcome should be a situation where we create as little as
possible traffic for the official mirrors. It doesn't matter if one is
the only one doing it or if traffic is spread around well, it's a
matter of plain decency: You're offered a free service which has to be
shared with many people, and may cease to be a free service if use of
this free service outgrows its capabilities.

of course, what you do with your own traffic is yours to determine.
And in a way we have little say over what people do with the official
server's bandwidth. But a certain amount of "good practice" is
expected, which is what I believe this discussion is about. Thus I
hope we're all able to keep this discussion general, not fall in
personal attacks.

-Stefan

2010/9/17 Nathan Wayde <disposaboy@konnichi.com>:
> On 17/09/10 00:21, Ng Oon-Ee wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 2010-09-16 at 16:16 -0700, Steve Holmes wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 09:54:16PM +0200, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 16/09/10 19:39, Matthew Gyurgyik wrote:
>>>>> you don't get to tell anyone how to use their bandwidth.
>>>>
>>>> But can we at least say that grabbing packages without using them is
>>>> wasting mirror bandwidth, and thus not something we want. In fact,
>>>> something that should be frowned upon?
>>>
>>> It sounds like this Nathan fella doesn't grasp the concept that he
>>> pays for his own bandwidth and the mirror operator has to pay for the
>>> bandwidth used by the mirror server. *Sure Nathan can squander his
>>> bandwidth however he wants but the mirror operators have to spread
>>> their bandwidth around for all of us to get our normal updates and of
>>> course, the cost has to be shouldered by someone.
>>
>> While my initial reaction to the thread was to do exactly this (point
>> out that Nathan does not seem to understand that mirrors have to pay for
>> bandwidth as well, and also that the linked article was obviously not
>> read) I think its a bit out-of-line to dismiss him as this 'Nathan
>> fella'. Where I come from such terms would only be used on a brat or
>> delinquent, slightly derogatory in my opinion.
>>
>> Not a comment on the CONTENT but on the STYLE =).
>>
>>
>
> like I said, I'd deleted my reply but here I'll state it again...
>
> I already run a mirror for other purposes, if the Tier-1 has a problem with
> that then they should block arm.konnichi.com .
>
> since I already run that for other purposes I sync from arm.konnichi.com -
> in-case you didn't realise I own it. I'm a idiot, that much is no secret, so
> maybe someone can enlighten me... like I said already, I already run a
> mirror for other purposes, if I want to waste the bandwidth of my mirror
> that's my business because I already paid for it, but the important question
> is the one that's always ignored in favour of petty politics and that is: I
> want to know specifically what was wrong with that script so I as a mirror
> operator can take the necessary measures to make sure I'm not abusing the
> Tier-1 from which I sync.
>
>



--
msn: stefan_wilkens@hotmail.com
e-mail: stefanwilkens@gmail.com
blog: http://www.stefanwilkens.eu/
adres: Lipperkerkstraat 14 7511 DA Enschede
 
Old 09-18-2010, 05:37 PM
Guus Snijders
 
Default 'Local mirror' page was removed from wiki

On 17-09-10 09:34, Stefan Erik Wilkens wrote:

Well then the situation is rather simple, isn't it.

If the amount of traffic a private local mirror generates for the
official mirror is greater than the amount of traffic that any local
clients (excluding any "other purposes" unrelated to the sync process
of course) generate for this local mirror, then obviously something is
very wrong. This should be fairly easy to determine and fairly easy to
attack (sync less frequently, increase the amount of clients syncing
from your local server or perhaps give up the local mirror
completely).


Stefan, i think you'd better read the post you responded to. It looks
like Nathan's "local" mirror is actually an official mirror...


If i understood correctly, he was just being curious what was supposed
to be wrong with the mentioned script.



mvg,
Guus
 

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