On 05/07/2010 11:27 AM, Ray Kohler wrote:

At the very least, I wish you would post your tech-support
questions on the forums, which are designed for that kind of content
(and are sadly already a bit overrun). This list, as I understand it,
is intended as the primary means for users to communicate with the
devs, not a help-channel. Filling it with ordinary help requests makes
it much less useful.


You have a legit point that David (and others) should do a little
research first before asking for help.



But your characterization of the mailing list - and your assertion that
all tech help requests belong on the forums - are both wrong.


The list is called "Arch general", and the devs have stated the list's
purpose as follows:


"This mailing list hosts general discusson about the Arch Linux
distribution. Questions, problems, and new development ideas can be
posted here."


http://mailman.archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/arch-general


So tech questions and requests for help, then, would seem to be
completely *on* topic for the list. (Although, again, people should be
considerate enough to do some homework first (i.e., read the news, and
search the forums, wiki, and/or google first) before posting.) Which
would match with what I've seen, having been an Arch user and list
member for about 6 or 7 years now. People have been using the list for
questions and tech help for as long as I've been here.


DR

On 05/07/2010 11:54 AM, Nathan Wayde wrote:

On 07/05/10 15:48, Burlynn Corlew Jr wrote:

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Johannes Held<mail@hehejo.de> wrote:


http://www.archlinux.org/news/495/

* If you have gvim installed, the update will inform you that vim
conflicts
with gvim. This is the expected behavior. Installation of vim and
gvim
separately is no longer required, the gvim package now installs
vim as

well.

--
Gruß, Johannes
http://hehejo.de



This is a rolling release, not an LTS. There is no excuse to not be
updating

regularly and reading the news. If its a production machine and you are
worried about breakage maybe you shouldnt be running arch on it. The ML,
forums, and irc are full of people who refuse to read the news or update
regularly, and we all waste time answering questions that with proper
arch

maintenance would ensure that they never come up.

Really dude? you complain about him wasting time when you could find
the time to dig up some old mail that was answered ages ago to attack
the guy for asking questions?
He didn't have to lookup anything. This is likely the 2-3rd time that he
has asked about stuff that has been covered in the news or extensively
on the forums and what not. David Rankin posts the most new topics on
this list, many of which, are elementary and/or off-topic and belong to
the forums.


I'm sure we can all agree that it's important for an Arch user to be
more independent and put more effort into solving our own problem but
did you know you can simply ignore any of these questions?
Post on the forum, that is why it exists. Arch-general is generally
aimed for more advance issues that haven't been covered else where. The
mailing list should have a much higher technical level than the forums.


It doesn't take any effort since the bulk of the issue was already in
the title.

It wastes my bandwidth and results in more crap to filter out.


To be honest I simply cannot take this kind of negativity. I would
really like for this kind of attitude to stay away from Arch because
it's not nice and it's the very thing I hate about the Linux community
in general.
This is the attitude that has made arch the way it is. It's all these
new comers from "soft" distros that are trying to change it. Back in 05
and 06 it was common place to receive a google link for a question like
this. Is their a limit, of course, but arch is not the distro to sugar
coat and hold peoples hands! Don't like it start a fork! If start
letting arch become a easy entry distro then we'll end up with another
ubuntu, fedora, suse, etc...


@David Rankin
1. Update regularly - at least one time a week
2.1. Subscribe to arch-announce
2.2. http://www.archlinux.org/feeds/news/
2.3. Set http;//home.archlinux.ca as you homepage
3. Google whenever you have a problem
4. For stuff not directly related to arch, aka a problem with a package,
cool themes, etc... post in the forums. It is a much more open environment.

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Nathan Wayde <kumyco@konnichi.com> wrote:

> On 07/05/10 15:48, Burlynn Corlew Jr wrote:
>
>> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Johannes Held<mail@hehejo.de> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.archlinux.org/news/495/
>>>
>>> * If you have gvim installed, the update will inform you that vim
>>> conflicts
>>> with gvim. This is the expected behavior. Installation of vim and gvim
>>> separately is no longer required, the gvim package now installs vim as
>>> well.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Gruß, Johannes
>>> http://hehejo.de
>>>
>>>
>> This is a rolling release, not an LTS. There is no excuse to not be
>> updating
>> regularly and reading the news. If its a production machine and you are
>> worried about breakage maybe you shouldnt be running arch on it. The ML,
>> forums, and irc are full of people who refuse to read the news or update
>> regularly, and we all waste time answering questions that with proper arch
>> maintenance would ensure that they never come up.
>>
>> Really dude? you complain about him wasting time when you could find the
> time to dig up some old mail that was answered ages ago to attack the guy
> for asking questions?
>
> I'm sure we can all agree that it's important for an Arch user to be more
> independent and put more effort into solving our own problem but did you
> know you can simply ignore any of these questions?
>
> It doesn't take any effort since the bulk of the issue was already in the
> title.
>
> To be honest I simply cannot take this kind of negativity. I would really
> like for this kind of attitude to stay away from Arch because it's not nice
> and it's the very thing I hate about the Linux community in general.
>

First off it wasnt mail, it was headline archlinux.org news. Secondly, for
me to expect people to use the resources Arch provides to resolve issues is
not crazy, and this is one issue among many dealing with the same thing. If
you refuse to read and stay updated why should any of us bother with
helping? Its spam that could be avoided with proper practices. We are not
here to babysit. If you dont like the principles arch runs with, use another
distro. That is not negativity but an expectation that you are using the
distro the way it is intended.

On 07/05/10 17:10, Burlynn Corlew Jr wrote:

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Nathan Wayde<kumyco@konnichi.com> wrote:


On 07/05/10 15:48, Burlynn Corlew Jr wrote:


On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Johannes Held<mail@hehejo.de> wrote:

http://www.archlinux.org/news/495/


* If you have gvim installed, the update will inform you that vim
conflicts
with gvim. This is the expected behavior. Installation of vim and gvim
separately is no longer required, the gvim package now installs vim as
well.

--
Gruß, Johannes
http://hehejo.de



This is a rolling release, not an LTS. There is no excuse to not be
updating
regularly and reading the news. If its a production machine and you are
worried about breakage maybe you shouldnt be running arch on it. The ML,
forums, and irc are full of people who refuse to read the news or update
regularly, and we all waste time answering questions that with proper arch
maintenance would ensure that they never come up.

Really dude? you complain about him wasting time when you could find the

time to dig up some old mail that was answered ages ago to attack the guy
for asking questions?

I'm sure we can all agree that it's important for an Arch user to be more
independent and put more effort into solving our own problem but did you
know you can simply ignore any of these questions?

It doesn't take any effort since the bulk of the issue was already in the
title.

To be honest I simply cannot take this kind of negativity. I would really
like for this kind of attitude to stay away from Arch because it's not nice
and it's the very thing I hate about the Linux community in general.



First off it wasnt mail, it was headline archlinux.org news. Secondly, for
me to expect people to use the resources Arch provides to resolve issues is
not crazy, and this is one issue among many dealing with the same thing. If
you refuse to read and stay updated why should any of us bother with
helping? Its spam that could be avoided with proper practices. We are not
here to babysit. If you dont like the principles arch runs with, use another
distro. That is not negativity but an expectation that you are using the
distro the way it is intended.


congrats guys.

On Fri, 7 May 2010 09:48:39 -0500
Burlynn Corlew Jr <burlynn@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 4:04 AM, Johannes Held <mail@hehejo.de> wrote:
>
> > http://www.archlinux.org/news/495/
> >
> > * If you have gvim installed, the update will inform you that vim
> > conflicts with gvim. This is the expected behavior. Installation of
> > vim and gvim separately is no longer required, the gvim package now
> > installs vim as well.
> >
> > --
> > Gruß, Johannes
> > http://hehejo.de
> >
>
> This is a rolling release, not an LTS. There is no excuse to not be
> updating regularly and reading the news. If its a production machine
> and you are worried about breakage maybe you shouldnt be running arch
> on it. The ML, forums, and irc are full of people who refuse to read
> the news or update regularly, and we all waste time answering
> questions that with proper arch maintenance would ensure that they
> never come up.
IMO instead of attacking the poor soul you should point him nicely in
the right direction, like the 2 posting before you did.

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David C. Rankin
<drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
> Guys,
>
> * * * *I have had vim and gvim installed side by side for 6 months+, today during
> update, pacman wanted to remove vim because it now conflicts with gvim. So I
> removed gvim and updated. What is the conflict? Why a conflict now when there
> hasn't been one in the past? Just checking...
>

Maybe try irc next time, at least people won't debate for hours
whether you should have searched first or not.
They will just tell you to read the f* news, possibly with a link

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 1:08 PM, pyther <pyther@pyther.net> wrote:

> 2.3. Set http;//home.archlinux.ca as you homepage
>


Instead of just ignoring threads like this, I do a quick read of everything.
Sometimes, it pays off. I did not know about this start page!
Very nice, indeed =)

Thank you, pyther.

--
Guilherme M. Nogueira
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
- Arthur C. Clarke

Geez. I guess it's just hard for people like David and myself, in my case a
loyal Arch user for the better part of a decade, to understand the
how-dare-you post a question asshole attitude that seems to have built up in
the mailing lists over the past few years.

On May 7, 2010 12:29 PM, "Xavier Chantry" <chantry.xavier@gmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:43 AM, David C. Rankin
<drankinatty@suddenlinkmail.com> wrote:
> Guys,
>
>...
Maybe try irc next time, at least people won't debate for hours
whether you should have searched first or not.
They will just tell you to read the f* news, possibly with a link

On Friday 07 May 2010 18:28:57 Xavier Chantry wrote:
> Maybe try irc next time, at least people won't debate for hours
> whether you should have searched first or not.
> They will just tell you to read the f* news, possibly with a link

using "pacmatic" could help, too

Bye...Frank

Excerpts from Robert Howard's message of 2010-05-07 18:46:24 +0200:
> Geez. I guess it's just hard for people like David and myself, in my case a
> loyal Arch user for the better part of a decade, to understand the
> how-dare-you post a question asshole attitude that seems to have built up in
> the mailing lists over the past few years.

It's even worse on IRC. You don't want to go there, believe me.
If you have thick skin and a lot of time you might get a helpful answer
eventually but it's not for the faint hearted.
--

Regards,
Philipp