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"Aaron Griffin" 11-27-2007 05:53 PM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
I just came across a couple of things in core/support that seemed odd
to me, and wanted to ask you guys what you thought:

support was intended to be apps which "help out" or "support" the rest
of core - like when installing and things like that.

a) screen
While this is an important app, sure, does it belong in core?

b) hdparm and sdparm
I don't see how these work in "support" - as the very least I'd put
them at the same mental level as acpi and pm-utils

c) openswan/openvpn/vpnc
I'm on the fence here. I mean, I could see VPN connections being
needed at some point during an install or something of the sort, but
at the same time, why do we have 3 VPN apps there?

Anyone want to clarify or give me your opinions here?

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Dale Blount 11-27-2007 05:59 PM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
> a) screen
> While this is an important app, sure, does it belong in core?

Probably not. Useful, but not normally used till after an install and
should be OK in extra.

> b) hdparm and sdparm
> I don't see how these work in "support" - as the very least I'd put
> them at the same mental level as acpi and pm-utils

Some drives/controllers used to required forcing modes with hdparm to
get decent performance (think install taking 2 days). Not sure if this
is still an issue.


> c) openswan/openvpn/vpnc
> I'm on the fence here. I mean, I could see VPN connections being
> needed at some point during an install or something of the sort, but
> at the same time, why do we have 3 VPN apps there?

openswan does ipsec based VPN
openvpn does SSL/TLS based VPN
vpnc does cisco based VPN

Not saying that they should be in core, but if we deem that one should
be, they all should be.

Dale


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Jason Chu 11-28-2007 08:40 PM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
On Tue, Nov 27, 2007 at 01:59:44PM -0500, Dale Blount wrote:
> > a) screen
> > While this is an important app, sure, does it belong in core?
>
> Probably not. Useful, but not normally used till after an install and
> should be OK in extra.
>
> > b) hdparm and sdparm
> > I don't see how these work in "support" - as the very least I'd put
> > them at the same mental level as acpi and pm-utils
>
> Some drives/controllers used to required forcing modes with hdparm to
> get decent performance (think install taking 2 days). Not sure if this
> is still an issue.

Wow... probably something on more dedicated hardware than just standard
beige boxes...

> > c) openswan/openvpn/vpnc
> > I'm on the fence here. I mean, I could see VPN connections being
> > needed at some point during an install or something of the sort, but
> > at the same time, why do we have 3 VPN apps there?
>
> openswan does ipsec based VPN
> openvpn does SSL/TLS based VPN
> vpnc does cisco based VPN
>
> Not saying that they should be in core, but if we deem that one should
> be, they all should be.

I would agree that I don't think these are really supposed to be in core.

If any were to stay in core, I'd put vpn in there. Call me silly, but at
one point I had a vpn'd wireless network to give access to the LAN.

Jason
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Tom K 11-29-2007 07:53 AM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
Aaron Griffin wrote:
> I just came across a couple of things in core/support that seemed odd
> to me, and wanted to ask you guys what you thought:
>
> support was intended to be apps which "help out" or "support" the rest
> of core - like when installing and things like that.

Hmm, yes.. but is it not also about providing network access by all
available means? If I wanted to reinstall my laptop right now, I would
need vpn support to get to the net.

> c) openswan/openvpn/vpnc
> I'm on the fence here. I mean, I could see VPN connections being
> needed at some point during an install or something of the sort, but
> at the same time, why do we have 3 VPN apps there?

As Dale mentions, these are three distinct vpn flavours. I requested the
inclusion of openswan in core for that very reason. If we're going to
support one in core, we should support them all.

T.

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"Aaron Griffin" 11-29-2007 04:48 PM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
On Nov 29, 2007 2:53 AM, Tom K <tom@archlinux.org> wrote:
> Aaron Griffin wrote:
> > I just came across a couple of things in core/support that seemed odd
> > to me, and wanted to ask you guys what you thought:
> >
> > support was intended to be apps which "help out" or "support" the rest
> > of core - like when installing and things like that.
>
> Hmm, yes.. but is it not also about providing network access by all
> available means? If I wanted to reinstall my laptop right now, I would
> need vpn support to get to the net.

Yeah, that's what I was unsure of. The question in my head was "is it
possible you NEED a vpn connection to get network access". I always
thought of it as more of a supplemental/nice-to-have thing. Never used
it seriously outside of "connect to work from home".

> > c) openswan/openvpn/vpnc
> > I'm on the fence here. I mean, I could see VPN connections being
> > needed at some point during an install or something of the sort, but
> > at the same time, why do we have 3 VPN apps there?
>
> As Dale mentions, these are three distinct vpn flavours. I requested the
> inclusion of openswan in core for that very reason. If we're going to
> support one in core, we should support them all.

I was actually not aware these were all different. That sucks that we
need 3 apps to do the same thing with slight differences, but oh well.

I'm sated on the VPN issue, they're annoying, but fine as someone may
need VPN access to install, and we can't predict which VPN flavor
they'd need.

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Eric Belanger 11-30-2007 11:48 PM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007, Dale Blount wrote:

>> a) screen
>> While this is an important app, sure, does it belong in core?
>
> Probably not. Useful, but not normally used till after an install and
> should be OK in extra.

If no one objects, I'll move screen to extra this week-end.

Eric

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Thomas Bächler 12-02-2007 10:45 AM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
Aaron Griffin schrieb:
> Yeah, that's what I was unsure of. The question in my head was "is it
> possible you NEED a vpn connection to get network access". I always
> thought of it as more of a supplemental/nice-to-have thing. Never used
> it seriously outside of "connect to work from home".

That actually happens quite often. Until a few months ago, the only way
to get online via my university's wireless was to use a VPN - and it
would be well possible that this is someone's only internet connection.
After installing from a core cd, one would want to go oline.

>>> c) openswan/openvpn/vpnc

I am not sure why we have openswan there and not ipsec-tools, but I
don't know much about ipsec anyway, I always failed in using it.

openvpn is a free VPN solution similar to ipsec, but much easier to set
up (for both server and client). It is widely used for VPNs.

vpnc is an open source replacement for the Cisco VPN Client. You can
connect to Cisco 3000 and similar concentrators. The protocol is based
on ipsec, but has some proprietary enhancements in authentication. This
is what my university uses.


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Tom K 12-02-2007 03:40 PM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
Thomas Bächler wrote:
> I am not sure why we have openswan there and not ipsec-tools, but I
> don't know much about ipsec anyway, I always failed in using it.

Because I'm the only IPSec-using dev, and I use Openswan. :)

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Dale Blount 12-03-2007 12:44 AM

Questionable apps in core/support
 
On Sun, 2007-12-02 at 16:40 +0000, Tom K wrote:
> Thomas Bächler wrote:
> > I am not sure why we have openswan there and not ipsec-tools, but I
> > don't know much about ipsec anyway, I always failed in using it.
>
> Because I'm the only IPSec-using dev, and I use Openswan. :)

I use openswan too, but on openwrt, not Arch. I know that won't help
when it comes to testing the package but I might be able to answer
non-distro specific questions about it.

Dale


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