-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

For some packages that i've been maintaining over months I have to
keep a ChangeLog .. since it's supported with pacman, and give us
(devs and tus) some resume, also this resume give to our users the
idea of what is being applied in this release/version of a package.

I usually do that on critical packages, and packages that have a
previous ChangeLog file.

So, a good practice is, if you're doing the favour to other dev to
maintain or rebuild his package, and this guy added a ChangeLog .. the
correct way to proceed is to write something in it, maybe this can
sound you like zomfg this is not kiss! .. but stuff like this bring us
quality IMHO. For example, I have been busy those months, and maybe i
will continue to be busy a few months more, but trust me, in my real
spare time, i dedicate sometime to the project, and when I saw that my
packages were updated I would like to know who and what change he did
instead to diff + look at the bugtracker + look at the rebuilds + look
at the mailing list .. as i've said, sometimes the free time is like 2
hours or less per day, so i loose some much time just seing commit
logs and checking the bug tracker, having the changelog that I've been
using will help me for sure.

Again, i'm not criticizing anybody, i'm just in favour of start doing
the things better and better, and i've had several packages that were
updated by someother devs/tus (and I am grateful with them) but, they
miss the part to fill the ChangeLog which makes me wonder what they
did on the packages (for sure, i've read a lot and now i'm confident
of what they did, but this makes me waste a whole morning reading
mails, bugtracker, and reading the logs of the svn).

That said, Have a nice weekend, i will try to smash bugs and update
some of my packages in order to be up to date the next week.


- --
Angel Velásquez
angvp @ irc.freenode.net
Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User
Linux Counter: #359909
http://www.angvp.com
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On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:49:39AM -0300, Angel Velásquez wrote:
> Hi,
>
> For some packages that i've been maintaining over months I have to
> keep a ChangeLog .. since it's supported with pacman, and give us
> (devs and tus) some resume, also this resume give to our users the
> idea of what is being applied in this release/version of a package.
>
> I usually do that on critical packages, and packages that have a
> previous ChangeLog file.
>
> So, a good practice is, if you're doing the favour to other dev to
> maintain or rebuild his package, and this guy added a ChangeLog .. the
> correct way to proceed is to write something in it, maybe this can
> sound you like zomfg this is not kiss! .. but stuff like this bring us
> quality IMHO. For example, I have been busy those months, and maybe i
> will continue to be busy a few months more, but trust me, in my real
> spare time, i dedicate sometime to the project, and when I saw that my
> packages were updated I would like to know who and what change he did
> instead to diff + look at the bugtracker + look at the rebuilds + look
> at the mailing list .. as i've said, sometimes the free time is like 2
> hours or less per day, so i loose some much time just seing commit
> logs and checking the bug tracker, having the changelog that I've been
> using will help me for sure.
>
> Again, i'm not criticizing anybody, i'm just in favour of start doing
> the things better and better, and i've had several packages that were
> updated by someother devs/tus (and I am grateful with them) but, they
> miss the part to fill the ChangeLog which makes me wonder what they
> did on the packages (for sure, i've read a lot and now i'm confident
> of what they did, but this makes me waste a whole morning reading
> mails, bugtracker, and reading the logs of the svn).

I'm all for writing useful (and detailed, if necessary) commit messages
instead of writing ChangeLog entries. We use a VCS for some reason.
Using proper commit messages makes changes damn easy to follow without
having to maintain these inconvenient ChangeLog files.

>
> That said, Have a nice weekend, i will try to smash bugs and update
> some of my packages in order to be up to date the next week.

P.S.: You should probably CC mails to aur-general if they affect TUs as
well.

>
>
> --
> Angel Velásquez
> angvp @ irc.freenode.net
> Arch Linux Developer / Trusted User
> Linux Counter: #359909
> http://www.angvp.com

Le 13 janvier 2012 11:49:39 Angel Velásquez a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> For some packages that i've been maintaining over months I have to
> keep a ChangeLog .. since it's supported with pacman, and give us
> (devs and tus) some resume, also this resume give to our users the
> idea of what is being applied in this release/version of a package.
>
> I usually do that on critical packages, and packages that have a
> previous ChangeLog file.
>
> So, a good practice is, if you're doing the favour to other dev to
> maintain or rebuild his package, and this guy added a ChangeLog .. the
> correct way to proceed is to write something in it, maybe this can
> sound you like zomfg this is not kiss! .. but stuff like this bring us
> quality IMHO. For example, I have been busy those months, and maybe i
> will continue to be busy a few months more, but trust me, in my real
> spare time, i dedicate sometime to the project, and when I saw that my
> packages were updated I would like to know who and what change he did
> instead to diff + look at the bugtracker + look at the rebuilds + look
> at the mailing list .. as i've said, sometimes the free time is like 2
> hours or less per day, so i loose some much time just seing commit
> logs and checking the bug tracker, having the changelog that I've been
> using will help me for sure.
>
> Again, i'm not criticizing anybody, i'm just in favour of start doing
> the things better and better, and i've had several packages that were
> updated by someother devs/tus (and I am grateful with them) but, they
> miss the part to fill the ChangeLog which makes me wonder what they
> did on the packages (for sure, i've read a lot and now i'm confident
> of what they did, but this makes me waste a whole morning reading
> mails, bugtracker, and reading the logs of the svn).
>
> That said, Have a nice weekend, i will try to smash bugs and update
> some of my packages in order to be up to date the next week.

This may just be a matter of taste, but personally I found the svn commit logs
more informative than Changelog files that are incomplete most of the time. If
you are looking for a one stop place to look what changed in your package, the
commit logs are probably the right place IMO.

Stéphane

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Lukas Fleischer
<archlinux@cryptocrack.de> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:49:39AM -0300, Angel Velásquez wrote:
> I'm all for writing useful (and detailed, if necessary) commit messages
> instead of writing ChangeLog entries. We use a VCS for some reason.
> Using proper commit messages makes changes damn easy to follow without
> having to maintain these inconvenient ChangeLog files.
It's more easy to read a human changelog, (shipped with packages which
don't needs to connect to archlinux.org), than developer oriented
commits.
We can make the synthesis of several commit in the changelog to make
it more understandable. And still try to make atomic commits.

In addition separates VCS message and package history, let's it
independant from vcs tools (svn/git/hg) we choose at a time.
--
Sébastien Luttringer
www.seblu.net

On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 07:44:31PM +0100, Seblu wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Lukas Fleischer
> <archlinux@cryptocrack.de> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:49:39AM -0300, Angel Velásquez wrote:
> > I'm all for writing useful (and detailed, if necessary) commit messages
> > instead of writing ChangeLog entries. We use a VCS for some reason.
> > Using proper commit messages makes changes damn easy to follow without
> > having to maintain these inconvenient ChangeLog files.
> It's more easy to read a human changelog, (shipped with packages which
> don't needs to connect to archlinux.org), than developer oriented
> commits.

I don't really see any big difference here. Commit messages should be
detailed and comprehensible as well. I'm not sure what you mean by
"developer oriented" but if your commit messages cannot be understood by
any user, you're probably doing something wrong

Check [1] for an example of how a commit message should look like.

> We can make the synthesis of several commit in the changelog to make
> it more understandable. And still try to make atomic commits.

Yes, separate changelogs make sense if we do summarize changes that are
spread over a lot of commits (like the "NEWS" file in pacman). We
usually don't have such changes to our packages, though (99% of changes
are made in a single commit). Please let me know if I'm wrong...

>
> In addition separates VCS message and package history, let's it
> independant from vcs tools (svn/git/hg) we choose at a time.

Proper VCS support importing history from others (check git-svn(1) and
git-cvsimport(1) for Git). And even if it cannot not be done, we could
still convert commit history to a text file later.

> --
> Sébastien Luttringer
> www.seblu.net

[1] http://projects.archlinux.org/svntogit/community.git/commit/?id=77c0210bce1365115811f4cbb37485dc64b7f15f

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On 01/13/2012 10:39 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:
> I'm sure someone will correct me if I mis-speak, but I don't think
> your bug is currently valid. There's currently no requirement that you
> convert to systemd, although I would highly recommend it. There was
> some talk about forcing conversion at some point.

I'm not so sure how you figure out that this bug is not valid and how
you come to the conclusion that it's not a requirement to switch to
native systemd units and still shipping legacy sysv init script is
already considered obsolete [1]


"Older versions of Fedora supported SystemV-style initscripts, but they
are now considered obsolete for Fedora 15+."

And since this is the attitude we should be forcing that migration this
release cycle maintainers have already had two full release cycles to
migrate...

JBG

1.http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Systemd


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On 01/13/2012 10:39 PM, Richard Shaw wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAN3TeO1Mu+jsyVeftcAiKjnc6RwjDsZ_zc9Kuy3 S27q7fR7rQw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">I'm sure someone will correct me if I mis-speak, but I don't think
your bug is currently valid. There's currently no requirement that you
convert to systemd, although I would highly recommend it. There was
some talk about forcing conversion at some point.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
I'm not so sure how you figure out that this bug is not valid and
how you come to the conclusion that it's not a requirement to switch
to native systemd units and still shipping legacy sysv init script
is already considered obsolete [1]<br>
<h3><span class="mw-headline" id="Initscripts"></span></h3>
<p>"Older versions of Fedora supported SystemV-style initscripts,
but they are now considered obsolete for Fedora 15+."<br>
</p>
<p>And since this is the attitude we should be forcing that
migration this release cycle maintainers have already had two full
release cycles to migrate...<br>
</p>
<p>JBG<br>
</p>
<p>1.http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:Guidelines#Systemd<br>
</p>
</body>
</html>

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On 14/01/12 08:51, Lukas Fleischer wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 07:44:31PM +0100, Seblu wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Lukas Fleischer
>> <archlinux@cryptocrack.de> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:49:39AM -0300, Angel Velásquez wrote:
>>> I'm all for writing useful (and detailed, if necessary) commit messages
>>> instead of writing ChangeLog entries. We use a VCS for some reason.
>>> Using proper commit messages makes changes damn easy to follow without
>>> having to maintain these inconvenient ChangeLog files.
>> It's more easy to read a human changelog, (shipped with packages which
>> don't needs to connect to archlinux.org), than developer oriented
>> commits.
>
> I don't really see any big difference here. Commit messages should be
> detailed and comprehensible as well. I'm not sure what you mean by
> "developer oriented" but if your commit messages cannot be understood by
> any user, you're probably doing something wrong
>
> Check [1] for an example of how a commit message should look like.

While I agree that a good commit message should be used, that is a side
point to the original email.

What was being asked was that if someone chooses to maintain a ChangeLog
for their package, then you should also update the ChangeLog file if you
make an update to that package.

Allan

On Sat, Jan 14, 2012 at 09:18:06AM +1000, Allan McRae wrote:
> On 14/01/12 08:51, Lukas Fleischer wrote:
> > On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 07:44:31PM +0100, Seblu wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Lukas Fleischer
> >> <archlinux@cryptocrack.de> wrote:
> >>> On Fri, Jan 13, 2012 at 11:49:39AM -0300, Angel Velásquez wrote:
> >>> I'm all for writing useful (and detailed, if necessary) commit messages
> >>> instead of writing ChangeLog entries. We use a VCS for some reason.
> >>> Using proper commit messages makes changes damn easy to follow without
> >>> having to maintain these inconvenient ChangeLog files.
> >> It's more easy to read a human changelog, (shipped with packages which
> >> don't needs to connect to archlinux.org), than developer oriented
> >> commits.
> >
> > I don't really see any big difference here. Commit messages should be
> > detailed and comprehensible as well. I'm not sure what you mean by
> > "developer oriented" but if your commit messages cannot be understood by
> > any user, you're probably doing something wrong
> >
> > Check [1] for an example of how a commit message should look like.
>
> While I agree that a good commit message should be used, that is a side
> point to the original email.
>
> What was being asked was that if someone chooses to maintain a ChangeLog
> for their package, then you should also update the ChangeLog file if you
> make an update to that package.

Agreed, and I'm also for keeping the maintainer's PKGBUILD formatting if
you update a package (unless it breaks something, of course).

Sorry for being slightly off-topic and turning this into a "ChangeLog
vs. commit log" discussion.

>
> Allan