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Old 03-21-2008, 02:01 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default 2.1rc1 32bit --> Linux vs Steinberg

Hi

Gustin Johnson wrote:
> I made the switch away from Cubase a couple of years ago. I use
> Rosegarden for midi, and I do all the mixing of various tracks in
> Ardour. In my mind, the FLOSS projects have surpassed the proprietary
> world, as long as you have proper (ie. supported) hardware. Of course
> buggy or substandard hardware is nearly as bad on a different OS.

My hardware is old and it's possible to produce professional with Cubase
on XP-MCE but I can't do this with Linux.
1. Linux needs more resources, much, much more.
2. Where are all the professional needed functions? Sync to professional
video per SMPTE while fixing some Tracks in the timing, for example
sound fx that have to be sync to video events, while the music should
change the tempo? If few applications are synced by jack, which
application is accountable for tempo changes for which other applications?

I have mental problems so I didn't work professional for the last years,
what means that I don't need a professional DA(and video)W.

FLOSS won't work without some nonOSS. FLOSS surpassed proprietary in
ethic behavior that counts to me much more than technical advantage.

> I do mute segments in Ardour since that is the app that fits most
> appropriately into my workflow.

I can't run more than one big application @ 898MHz/1,125GBRAM.
You can't mute MIDI segments. If you let Rosegarden play some bars in
circle there will be a little break in the flow. I only have 2 analog
IOs, so I can't use my mixer and 19" fx to master a song but it's
possible to mix with Cubase, trying this with Linux won't work, it even
isn't possible to use good EQs for a multi-track recording for all the
tracks without running out of cpu capacity.

Until now I only know JAMin as a good compressor for Linux but I can't
use it, because of my bare resources. I have to make pop music with no
or a bad stereo sum compression ;D. I won't do something like ping pong
recording and other odd tricks.

It's ok because I decided never to use Apple or Microsoft but don't tell
me Linux is professional. It isn't! It's far away from this. I worked a
long time for top studio equipment manufactories like Brauner
Microphones and comparable and never heard about good quality studios
using Linux.

I expectantly wait for lv2, all my applications are using LADSPA/DSSI.

> I cannot speak to Rosegarden since I
> simply do not use it for tasks that require this.
>
> Seq24 has a more limited scope and so it is not directly comparable to
> either Rosegarden or Ardour. I would go so far as to say that
> comparisons between our tools and that provided by Steinberg et al. is
> not all that valid. To do so really misses the subtle power of jack and
> the rest of the stack.
>
> Remember, there is probably no single application that does what you
> need, but in the Linux/BSD/Unix philosophy, there is likely several
> applications that together will help you get your work done. The trade
> off is complexity in order to gain flexibility and power. To be fair I
> always preferred Lego to my other toys growing up, as it did not hinder
> my imagination as much a prefabed toy.

Lego is a building material, a DAW is a tool. The Cubases I have seen
could do all is needed and the Linux I know won't do this. At the
philosophy treated by it's technical side programming for Linux is hell
for me, I have given up to do this for Linux at the moment. I programmed
something in 10 Minutes and needed 10 days to build the makefile.

> A spaceship one day could be a
> castle the next. Similarly my laptop is router, VM server, workstation
> by day and a DAW by night. This is not possible in Windows (and to a
> lesser extent OSX).

I'm running Suse 10.3 (with virtualbox Fedora Werwolf on the Suse 10.3
as host), JAD 1.0 (this is Suse 10.2), 64studio 2.1rc1 (you know it's
Debian Etch), DSL 4.2.5 (what is Debian Woody) and also have installed
XP-MCE (Windows only for testing things if something won't work with Linux).

Windows is 100% stable and can nearly do everything, there is one big
problem with Windows common to 64studio, I can't adjust the vertical
refresh rate but I never tried to change this for Windows. No Linux ever
has been 100% stable with my hardware. Everything is fine with one click
(ok, with two clicks) on XP-MCE.

With Linux I have to use Ion, a frame based WM, I like it but I don't
like that I'm forced to use it.

> The point is that there is significant power at your disposal
> _right_now_. Waiting for that perfect software somewhere over the
> horizon is only cheating yourself.

I try to find some better hardware but it must fit to my oldish because
I only can spend something around 100,-EUR this year.

To sum up:

Linux is for free, Linux is open source, Linux isn't a corporation
acting criminal in opposition to Apple and Microsoft, they're highly
criminal, if you will download something from Apple you have to agree to
hate Serbian, Iraki etc. but Linux is hard to use, it's less expensive
to buy Cubase than it's to get hardware working with Linux as a DA(V)W.

Linux is the better OS but Linux isn't state of the art as a all round
tool for artworks, in the past audio studios have been working with Mac
and today they are working with XP even if they have much better
hardware than I have. You can find Linux in professional German
broadcast sometimes but nobody will watch German TV or will hear German
Radio.

Quentin Harley wrote:
> In the background the guys at ardour are cooking up the next binary
> version of ardour while they are providing occasional minor releases
> to fix problems and add smaller enhancements along the way.
> Indications are there that this version will, besides all the
> enhancements of 2.2 and 2.3, also have midi sequencing support
> (Finally!!!) and will support all the old and new native linux
> plug-in standards.

Because I need MIDI and audio tracks and I just can run one big
application and I like to have all tracks in one window I don't know
much about ardour. I hope it will become possible to me to run
applications that can control my synthesizers by sysex like the
Matrix-1000 while playing non sysex MIDI data and audio tracks and that
there will be some EQs and a good compressor for the 'newer' plug-in
standard.

> I am not a very big midi guy, but my control surface is already
> interfacing via midi with ardour to automate my mix control. My
> brother is a composer though, and he is using midi on a daily basis.
>
> We'll just have to wait a while longer while they get everything
> ready... In the mean time, Rosegarden came from the other side, only
> midi. In the end we'll have a couple of high quality multifunctional
> suites that can work independently, or synced to jack, all together!

Rosegarden audio-tracks are fine for me, in this case the concept of
Linux is working. If anybody like to edit pcm he could chose the editor
Rosegarden should use.

Also a very good program for artists is Gimp, because it's near to the
old Photoshop with some newer Photoshop like features. I have given up
to use Photoshop on a emulation with Linux because I'm fine with Gimp
and I don't like the feature overkill of Photoshop.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Old 03-21-2008, 05:01 PM
Daniel James
 
Default 2.1rc1 32bit --> Linux vs Steinberg

Hi Ralf,

> 1. Linux needs more resources, much, much more.

I don't think you're comparing like with like. If you run real-time
mastering plugins on Windows then you will find they are quite CPU
intensive. For example, Waves recommends a minimum of Pentium 4 2.8GHz
and 2GB RAM on Vista to run its Masters bundle:

http://www.wavesupport.net/content.aspx?id=3932

> 2. Where are all the professional needed functions? Sync to professional
> video per SMPTE while fixing some Tracks in the timing

Ardour supports SMPTE timecode.

> Until now I only know JAMin as a good compressor for Linux but I can't
> use it, because of my bare resources.

To do mastering properly you need a well-tuned listening room and a good
pair of monitors. The cost of these combined is far greater than a
processor/motherboard upgrade. Otherwise, you may be better off to pay
someone to do your mastering for you.

> I worked a
> long time for top studio equipment manufactories like Brauner
> Microphones

You couldn't get us a free sample, could you? :-)

> and never heard about good quality studios
> using Linux.

It's a recent phenomenon, and for the most part they will be using Linux
in embedded systems, like the Korg Oasys.

> I expectantly wait for lv2, all my applications are using LADSPA/DSSI.

I think LV2's plugin GUIs and internationalisation support will be very
cool indeed.

> With Linux I have to use Ion, a frame based WM, I like it but I don't
> like that I'm forced to use it.

Try Fluxbox or XFCE instead.

> it's less expensive
> to buy Cubase than it's to get hardware working with Linux as a DA(V)W.

That depends on how lucky you are with the hardware you already have. A
lot of PCs work pretty well out of the box with 64 Studio.

For me personally, cost isn't the issue. I could have bought ProTools HD
or Nuendo and a load of expensive outboard gear for my own studio with
the money I've invested in the 64 Studio distro. What I dislike about
proprietary software is being held over a barrel by the vendor, and the
fact that many of the people who could benefit most from the software
don't have access to it.

This is especially true of musicians, who are probably the worst paid
members of the creative community. Even when they can make a decent
income, it doesn't last. That's why there are so many reunion bands
around these days, churning out old hits. As a teenager I loved the
Pixies, but by the time of their Trompe Le Monde tour in about 91/92
they were obviously bored on stage. I was dismayed to find out that they
reformed just for the money, but I can't entirely blame them for doing it.

> Linux is the better OS but Linux isn't state of the art as a all round
> tool for artworks

We're working on that all round tool :-) As for state of the art, a lot
of the programs that people talk about on proprietary platforms are
actually pretty old in design. I mean, Reason is just an emulation of a
1980's hardware rack. Most of the DAW's are based around concepts which
are just as old.

I've seen nothing on Windows or OS X to match the art being made by live
coders with distros like pure:dyne...

https://devel.goto10.org/puredyne

Cheers!

Daniel



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Old 03-21-2008, 07:32 PM
Gustin Johnson
 
Default 2.1rc1 32bit --> Linux vs Steinberg

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| My hardware is old and it's possible to produce professional with
| Cubase on XP-MCE but I can't do this with Linux. 1. Linux needs more
| resources, much, much more.

I am not sure what mean by this. I use Linux on older hardware
precisely because it is more efficient with resources.

| 2. Where are all the professional needed functions? Sync to
| professional video per SMPTE while fixing some Tracks in the timing,
| for example sound fx that have to be sync to video events, while the
| music should change the tempo? If few applications are synced by
| jack, which application is accountable for tempo changes for which
| other applications?

I cannot speak to video since that is an area that holds little to no
interest for me. To answer your question, it depends on the
applications. Most of the stuff I do is live recording so the tempo is
dictated by musicians. For my dabbling in composing, Rosegarden usually
sets the tempo since that is where I am writing the notes. Ardour
doesn't care about tempo, it just records the audio output from soft
synths and the like. I did not say that this is not always complicated,
but I found Cubase difficult to use when I first started using it.

| I have mental problems so I didn't work professional for the last
| years, what means that I don't need a professional DA(and video)W.
|
I do this purely for the joy of it. I appreciate having high quality
"professional" grade tools at my disposal. That is perhaps the true
power of open source, is that such concepts of "lite" or "home" users
means as little as "professional" ones. There is no distinction which
is as it should be.

| FLOSS won't work without some nonOSS. FLOSS surpassed proprietary in
| ethic behavior that counts to me much more than technical advantage.
|
|

I am not sure what you mean by "FLOSS won't work without some nonOSS".

|> I do mute segments in Ardour since that is the app that fits most
|> appropriately into my workflow.
|
| I can't run more than one big application @ 898MHz/1,125GBRAM. You
| can't mute MIDI segments. If you let Rosegarden play some bars in
| circle there will be a little break in the flow. I only have 2 analog
| IOs, so I can't use my mixer and 19" fx to master a song but it's
| possible to mix with Cubase, trying this with Linux won't work, it
| even isn't possible to use good EQs for a multi-track recording for
| all the tracks without running out of cpu capacity.

The midi is usually being sent somewhere to be rendered into an audio
stream, either a software synth or hardware one. The output from these
is what I work with in Ardour. I can set the volume on the audio, not
the midi that is controlling it. This is not the same as dynamics, I do
lean heavily on velocity to help with dynamics of a song and to make it
sound more natural. I am however a pretty bad composer regardless of
the tools I use

My previous DAW was an AMD 1000Mhz with 1.5 GB ram. This was adequate
for mixing audio though it was definitely too weak for soft synths. I
was able to use rosegarden to compose, qsynth (it plays sound fonts, but
if you have an emu10k synth on your sound card you can get it to
render sound fonts instead) and other software synths, though generally
only one track at a time. Realtime effects may not have been the best
with that rig, but they sucked in Cubase as well.

For EQ'ing and other work, I would do it one track at a time and record
the output to disk. This was to conserve resources and mimicked my
Cubase work-flow.

| Until now I only know JAMin as a good compressor for Linux but I
| can't use it, because of my bare resources. I have to make pop music
| with no or a bad stereo sum compression ;D. I won't do something like
| ping pong recording and other odd tricks.

| It's ok because I decided never to use Apple or Microsoft but don't
| tell me Linux is professional. It isn't! It's far away from this. I
| worked a long time for top studio equipment manufactories like
| Brauner Microphones and comparable and never heard about good quality
| studios using Linux.

This goes back to the notion that distinguishing between professional,
hobbyist, and home users is irrelevant. There is no Ardour lite, nor
arbitrary limitations like only being able to mix in 2.1 or 5.1. The
idea of an upgrading for more features simply does not exist. I am
referring to upgrades laterally within a product line. Obviously Ardour
2 adds features just as Cubase SX 2 added features.

| I expectantly wait for lv2, all my applications are using
| LADSPA/DSSI.

That is your choice. Not one I would personally make but I do
appreciate the freedom to make these choices.

|> I cannot speak to Rosegarden since I simply do not use it for tasks
|> that require this.
|>
|> Seq24 has a more limited scope and so it is not directly comparable
|> to either Rosegarden or Ardour. I would go so far as to say that
|> comparisons between our tools and that provided by Steinberg et
|> al. is not all that valid. To do so really misses the subtle power
|> of jack and the rest of the stack.
|>
|> Remember, there is probably no single application that does what
|> you need, but in the Linux/BSD/Unix philosophy, there is likely
|> several applications that together will help you get your work
|> done. The trade off is complexity in order to gain flexibility and
|> power. To be fair I always preferred Lego to my other toys
|> growing up, as it did not hinder my imagination as much a prefabed
|> toy.
|
| Lego is a building material, a DAW is a tool. The Cubases I have seen
| could do all is needed and the Linux I know won't do this. At the
| philosophy treated by it's technical side programming for Linux is
| hell for me, I have given up to do this for Linux at the moment. I
| programmed something in 10 Minutes and needed 10 days to build the
| makefile.
|
|> A spaceship one day could be a castle the next. Similarly my
|> laptop is router, VM server, workstation by day and a DAW by night.
|> This is not possible in Windows (and to a lesser extent OSX).
|
| I'm running Suse 10.3 (with virtualbox Fedora Werwolf on the Suse
| 10.3 as host), JAD 1.0 (this is Suse 10.2), 64studio 2.1rc1 (you know
| it's Debian Etch), DSL 4.2.5 (what is Debian Woody) and also have
| installed XP-MCE (Windows only for testing things if something won't
| work with Linux).
|
| Windows is 100% stable and can nearly do everything, there is one big
| problem with Windows common to 64studio, I can't adjust the vertical
| refresh rate but I never tried to change this for Windows. No Linux
| ever has been 100% stable with my hardware. Everything is fine with
| one click (ok, with two clicks) on XP-MCE.

My day job is spent supporting Windows desktops. I can assert with
certainty that Windows is not 100% stable, no operating system is.
Having said that XP-MCE was a painful experience. XP-Pro is a better
choice. If you want the media interface, there are better 3rd party
addons.

I also suspect that you and I mean different things when we use the word
"stable". There is a reason I use Linux on mission critical servers as
well my home server. Direct purchase cost was not a factor for either
of these.

| With Linux I have to use Ion, a frame based WM, I like it but I don't
| like that I'm forced to use it.

You are not forced to use it. You choose to use it based on a set of
criteria of your making. There are other lightwieght alternatives to
choose from if ion is not to your liking.

Having said that, I run KDE just fine on a P3 866Mhz laptop with 512 MB RAM.

|> The point is that there is significant power at your disposal
|> _right_now_. Waiting for that perfect software somewhere over the
|> horizon is only cheating yourself.
|
| I try to find some better hardware but it must fit to my oldish
| because I only can spend something around 100,-EUR this year.
|
| To sum up:
|
| Linux is for free, Linux is open source, Linux isn't a corporation
| acting criminal in opposition to Apple and Microsoft, they're highly
| criminal, if you will download something from Apple you have to agree
| to hate Serbian, Iraki etc. but Linux is hard to use, it's less
| expensive to buy Cubase than it's to get hardware working with Linux
| as a DA(V)W.

I strongly disagree with you here. I strongly urge you to check out
Aaron Seigo's perspective on this (he is a KDE developer). I believe
what you mean to say is that your skills acquired on other platforms
does not always translate well to a Linux (or for that matter BSD)
desktop.

Ubuntu for example installs more easily than Windows XP (hardware is
better supported out of the box). After the install a base set of
applications are already to go. My 65 year old dad was able to install
Ubuntu (and we are talking about one of their early releases, not the
latest one). He has yet to successfully install any version of Windows,
and he has tried every version since 3.1 with the exception of MCE and
Vista.

Linux is not Windows nor is it OSX. Mimicking the crappy state of
computer interfaces is not the right answer.

| Linux is the better OS but Linux isn't state of the art as a all
| round tool for artworks, in the past audio studios have been working
| with Mac and today they are working with XP even if they have much
| better hardware than I have. You can find Linux in professional
| German broadcast sometimes but nobody will watch German TV or will
| hear German Radio.

I am not saying that there is still no room from improvement, but
especially in the audio realm there is utility ready for use _today_.

Best of luck,
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