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Old 06-11-2010, 10:54 AM
Daniel James
 
Default opensource.com talk

Hi all,

A couple of weeks ago, I did a phone-in presentation on Red Hat's
community site, opensource.com. It was about Free Software and
innovation in the music industry. The slides and audio are now available
via an archive link on this page:

http://opensource.com/life/10/6/rock-n-roll-instant-messaging-creative-commons

Cheers!

Daniel
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:50 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default opensource.com talk

Daniel James wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I did a phone-in presentation on Red Hat's
> community site, opensource.com. It was about Free Software and
> innovation in the music industry. The slides and audio are now available
> via an archive link on this page:
>
> http://opensource.com/life/10/6/rock-n-roll-instant-messaging-creative-commons
>
> Cheers!
>
> Daniel

Hi all, hi Daniel

"closed source tools such as Protools and Autotune are pushing out
cookie-cutter sounds"

Not the quality of the tools is bad. The idea of closed source is bad.
The usage of this software is bad. But OTOH, I never heard of all the
issues regarding to jitter, latency compensation, sync, disconnecting
audio ports for this proprietary software. I'm in contact with people
who changed from Linux to this kind of software, because they
experienced jitter, latency compensation, sync, disconnecting audio
ports issues for Linux too. A lot of people in my age, children of the
80ies, switched from the Ataris and analog world to Linux first, but
then needed to use Apple and Microsoft based solutions, because Linux
failed much too much, anyway they do use FLOSS on other OSS' too. It's
possible to do non-cookie-cutter sounds by using proprietary software.

I'm pro CC, but perhaps I have enough to eat, because friends prefer
GEMA . And let me tell you, those GEMA musicians give away recordings
for free too.

This is a biased presentation, similar to the biased presentations of
the proprietary crowd. I'm not fine with this black and white paintings.

It all comes with advantages and disadvantages, even pure analog
equipment, the only equipment without bizarre annoying technical issues,
has it's disadvantages, prime cost and care.

0,02 €,

Ralf
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:29 PM
Daniel James
 
Default opensource.com talk

Hi Ralf,

> "closed source tools such as Protools and Autotune are pushing out
> cookie-cutter sounds"

That's a quote from the moderator's summary, not my presentation :-)

> OTOH, I never heard of all the
> issues regarding to jitter, latency compensation, sync, disconnecting
> audio ports for this proprietary software.

Try the SoS forum, you will read many examples :-) Here's a great one...

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=836719&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#836719

> It's
> possible to do non-cookie-cutter sounds by using proprietary software.

That is true, but I believe the market is being steered towards
'consumers' and ready made, easy solutions because it's far more
lucrative. How many people are there who need quick, simple software
compared to those that need complex, flexible tools? And vitally, are
the people that need the complex tools prepared to pay for them?

> This is a biased presentation

Absolutely, it's a personal viewpoint. It's not an academic paper :-)

> It all comes with advantages and disadvantages, even pure analog
> equipment, the only equipment without bizarre annoying technical issues

Analogue gear has bizarre annoying technical issues too. The only
difference is that the vast majority of analogue manufacturers will
supply schematics and spare parts (which we can compare to source code
and patches).

This is the other reason why I can never recommend Bose consumer
products (no schematics or spares available to independent engineers,
according to my local repair guys). The main reason, I think you can
guess :-)

In analogue, or even digital stand-alone hardware, it's weird and just
plain wrong not to have full technical documentation available. I
believe we should have the same expectation for software. I've just been
helping a neighbour with her (many) Windows 7 problems, and it's
reminded me that not being able to fix stuff really sucks.

Cheers!

Daniel
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Old 06-11-2010, 12:43 PM
Dave Phillips
 
Default opensource.com talk

Daniel James wrote:
> .... I've just been
> helping a neighbour with her (many) Windows 7 problems, and it's
> reminded me that not being able to fix stuff really sucks.
>

One my favorite reasons for using Linux: The ability to honestly tell my
friends "Sorry, I can't help you, I don't use Windows anymore."

Ivy has Vista on her desktop box and XP on her laptop. I've had some
fix-it sessions on both machines, always ending with "If you'd use
Ubuntu you'd be done with all this happy horse-hockey".

To twist a line from Charles Bukowski, "I don't hate Windows, I just
feel better when it's not around."

Best,

dp

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Old 06-11-2010, 12:51 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default opensource.com talk

Daniel James wrote:
>> It all comes with advantages and disadvantages, even pure analog
>> equipment, the only equipment without bizarre annoying technical issues
>>
>
> Analogue gear has bizarre annoying technical issues too. The only
> difference is that the vast majority of analogue manufacturers will
> supply schematics and spare parts (which we can compare to source code
> and patches).
>
> This is the other reason why I can never recommend Bose consumer
> products (no schematics or spares available to independent engineers,
> according to my local repair guys). The main reason, I think you can
> guess :-)
>
> In analogue, or even digital stand-alone hardware, it's weird and just
> plain wrong not to have full technical documentation available. I
> believe we should have the same expectation for software. I've just been
> helping a neighbour with her (many) Windows 7 problems, and it's
> reminded me that not being able to fix stuff really sucks.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Daniel
>

Hi Daniel

first, a little bit OT, any equipment from Bose is waste.

Back to the topic, the complete sentence is important:

> It all comes with advantages and disadvantages, even pure analog
> equipment, the only equipment without bizarre annoying technical
> issues, has it's disadvantages, prime cost and care.

Maintenance (care) is the name of the game. You need to calibrate,
demagnetize, replace dry capacitors, corroded relays etc. all the time.
You need the service manuals, in Germany you e.g. could get them from
"Schaltungsdienst Lange o.H.G., Postfach 47 06 53, D-12315 Berlin, Tel:
030 / 723 81 410, Fax: 030 / 723 81 500". I don't know if this address
is up-to-date, I've taken it from my Yamaha MT44D service manual .
For analog equipment you need to be an engineer and you need to have
money, but if you are an engineer and you do have money, than there
aren't any bizarre issues. And to be fair, digital stand-alone equipment
is ok too.

Cheers,

Ralf
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:16 PM
Daniel James
 
Default opensource.com talk

Hi Ralf,

> Maintenance (care) is the name of the game. You need to calibrate,
> demagnetize, replace dry capacitors, corroded relays etc. all the time.

True, maybe not 'all' the time if you are lucky.

A case in point are those analogue mixing desks from the 80's and 90's
with built-in computer automation. The analogue part of the desk
probably still works, but you can't get any support for the software on
the computer (if that works at all).

Cheers!

Daniel
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Old 06-11-2010, 01:45 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default opensource.com talk

Daniel James wrote:
> Hi Ralf,
>
>
>> Maintenance (care) is the name of the game. You need to calibrate,
>> demagnetize, replace dry capacitors, corroded relays etc. all the time.
>>
>
> True, maybe not 'all' the time if you are lucky.
>
> A case in point are those analogue mixing desks from the 80's and 90's
> with built-in computer automation. The analogue part of the desk
> probably still works, but you can't get any support for the software on
> the computer (if that works at all).
>
> Cheers!
>
> Daniel
>

I don't like that we are living in throwaway societies. To repair or
just to care old analog and old digital equipment you need to get
expensive survival kits, without any guarantee that this kits are ok.
Regarding to the software, it doesn't matter if it's proprietary or
FLOSS, one day your favourite software won't be supported any more.

To do progress it might be ok, one day to scarp old and still good
ideas, if new solutions are able to replace the old equipment.
Unfortunately we often do bad steps, e.g. the record is replaced by the
CD and the CD is replaced by MP3. If we listen to a record, played by
good turn tables etc. and we do compare it with the MP3 version, we
(most people) well be able to hear the loss for the sound quality.

In Germany most people didn't notice that fresh milk, isn't fresh milk
any more, but always too much heated, so that it doesn't taste as milk
any more. This was done step by step.
For music we do have heavy rotation. People turn on their radios
(instead of enjoying silence sometimes), they don't like the music
first, but after listening 20 times a day to the same
loudness-war-autotune song, they like it.

I fear for FLOSS a kind of religion, causing a similar effect.

Cheers!

Ralf
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:33 PM
Folderol
 
Default opensource.com talk

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:16:17 +0100
Daniel James <daniel@64studio.com> wrote:

> Hi Ralf,
>
> > Maintenance (care) is the name of the game. You need to calibrate,
> > demagnetize, replace dry capacitors, corroded relays etc. all the time.
>
> True, maybe not 'all' the time if you are lucky.
>
> A case in point are those analogue mixing desks from the 80's and 90's
> with built-in computer automation. The analogue part of the desk
> probably still works, but you can't get any support for the software on
> the computer (if that works at all).
>
> Cheers!
>
> Daniel

A case in point...
I built a precision audio generator in the mid 1970s. About a month ago
it had it's first fault. A rectifier diode failed, taking the fuse with
it.

Wish I could get software with that kind of reliability!

--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.
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Old 06-17-2010, 10:21 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default opensource.com talk

Folderol wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 14:16:17 +0100
> Daniel James <daniel@64studio.com> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi Ralf,
>>
>>
>>> Maintenance (care) is the name of the game. You need to calibrate,
>>> demagnetize, replace dry capacitors, corroded relays etc. all the time.
>>>
>> True, maybe not 'all' the time if you are lucky.
>>
>> A case in point are those analogue mixing desks from the 80's and 90's
>> with built-in computer automation. The analogue part of the desk
>> probably still works, but you can't get any support for the software on
>> the computer (if that works at all).
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>> Daniel
>>
>
> A case in point...
> I built a precision audio generator in the mid 1970s. About a month ago
> it had it's first fault. A rectifier diode failed, taking the fuse with
> it.
>
> Wish I could get software with that kind of reliability!
>

'mid 1970s', that's why your audio generator did not use a switching
power supply. We need to be fair, modern analog technology also is
tricky. I guess no switching power supply will survive without changing
capacitors and resistors for such a long time. Especially the resistors
are a PITA. Costs = nothing, but they are exotic and not close at hand.
Or has anybody a collection of abstruse high ohmic resistors at home?
This is what we have at home:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preferred_number#E_series:_Capacitors_and_resistor s
Switching power supplies will feed back garbage to the grid.

At the end of the 80ies the human race became shallow.

I know digital equipment from the 80ies with Mickey Mouse technical
specifications, but I never heard state-of-the-art digital equipment
with amazing technical specifications, fit to hold a candle to those
oldish digital equipment.

When driving with the bus I hear people listening to music played loud
by mobile phone speakers. Musically pleasure yielded stupid constant
stream of 'music'.

Btw. to the list and off-list more and more people subscribed to LAD
experience MIDI jitter on modern computers for every OS. OTOH using the
rtai kernel patch, controlling CNC should be possible without micro
controllers. I wonder if Linux audio is using the best rt patch, resp.
if it's possible to use the rtai patch for audio too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTAI
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl
http://www.linuxcnc.org/hardy/ubuntu-8.04-desktop-emc2-aj07-i386.iso
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/7179

Cheers!

Ralf
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Old 06-18-2010, 08:54 AM
Daniel James
 
Default opensource.com talk

Hi Ralf,

> Btw. to the list and off-list more and more people subscribed to LAD
> experience MIDI jitter on modern computers for every OS.

You're quite right to keep mentioning this issue, and I do appreciate
the time you've put into testing to prove the point.

> OTOH using the
> rtai kernel patch, controlling CNC should be possible without micro
> controllers. I wonder if Linux audio is using the best rt patch, resp.
> if it's possible to use the rtai patch for audio too?

That patch is not something we've looked at yet, but I'm sceptical that
the realtime kernel is the cause of your MIDI problems. If they got this
right in the 80's, on computers which could not do anything near
realtime audio processing, then I think it's more likely to be a
question of MIDI application design. Have you tried running the test on
Ardour 3?

Also, we have less on-board MIDI controllers now, and more USB, which I
suspect might be contributing to the problem.

Looking at the thread here:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1178006&mpage=3

it seems that Logic 5 and Logic 6 had tight MIDI timing, but in Logic 7
it got worse. Other proprietary sequencers are reported as having really
bad or variable jitter.

Have you seen this page? http://openmuse.org/transport/fidelity.html

See also this IBM paper from 2001:
http://openmuse.org/noncpl/MIDIWAVE-ICMC2001.pdf

Cheers!

Daniel
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