This is a list for 64 Studio users to discus 64 Studio related issues,
tips, help etc.
It is NOT a place to discuss:
* Cool Window Vista Tricks
* Asking advice about the funny fungus that grows under your left
big toenail
* 5 ways to save money when taking your car in for service
* why 64studio does not have a future in multimedia
My inbox was today again filled with a futile discussion and I must say
that I did not read more than 30% of it.
Cheers,
Quentin
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12-17-2008, 05:57 PM
Ross
What the users list is for
Hi Quentin,
My inbox was today again filled with a futile discussion and I must say
that I did not read more than 30% of it.
I am assuming you are talking about Ralf's recent threads here, I have
actually learned quite a lot about how others perceive Linux from these
and similar threads. I think I can see both sides of the story and am
sure if given consideration by enough people ways will be found around
the problems Ralf has raised, but as I see it first the problem must be
acknowledged as a problem by both sides. I have been using Linux almost
since it's inception and have seen many others (including myself at
times) going through what Ralf is going through and I am sure there will
be other casualties before the problem is acknowledged and action is
taken to fix it.
Whilst this may not be directly on-topic for 64studio Users list I think
if these problems are resolved (and they will never be resolved if they
are not discussed) it will be to the benefit of both the developers and
users of 64studio, and all other Linux distros too.
Cheers,
Ross.
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12-17-2008, 06:35 PM
Quentin Harley
What the users list is for
Ross wrote:
Hi Quentin,
My inbox was today again filled with a futile discussion and I must
say that I did not read more than 30% of it.
I am assuming you are talking about Ralf's recent threads here,
Not only his ;-)
Sorry if I sound a bit short... I have similar "no solution" rants
going on in other areas as well (not related to linux) and I just feel a
bit overwhelmed by this sudden outbursts. Perhaps it is because it is
the end of the year that people suddenly get very vocal about their
problems...
Ignore my post...
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12-17-2008, 06:49 PM
Ross
What the users list is for
Hi Quentin,
Quentin Harley wrote:
Ross wrote:
Hi Quentin,
My inbox was today again filled with a futile discussion and I must
say that I did not read more than 30% of it.
I am assuming you are talking about Ralf's recent threads here,
Not only his ;-)
Sorry if I sound a bit short... I have similar "no solution" rants
going on in other areas as well (not related to linux) and I just feel a
bit overwhelmed by this sudden outbursts. Perhaps it is because it is
the end of the year that people suddenly get very vocal about their
problems...
Ignore my post...
I won't ignore something just because it doesn't fit with what I think,
I have a feeling others doing just that are contributing to Ralf and
others' frustration. Your opinion is just as important to this of
discussion as the others which have been put forward. I don't have any
answers (not even sure yet whether there will ever be answers) to this
yet but am well on the way to understanding what the problem is and your
contributions to this and other threads have helped me with this
understanding as much as the others'.
Cheers,
Ross.
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12-18-2008, 01:19 AM
Gustin Johnson
What the users list is for
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Ross wrote:
> Hi Quentin,
>>
>> My inbox was today again filled with a futile discussion and I must
>> say that I did not read more than 30% of it.
>
> I am assuming you are talking about Ralf's recent threads here, I have
> actually learned quite a lot about how others perceive Linux from these
> and similar threads. I think I can see both sides of the story and am
> sure if given consideration by enough people ways will be found around
> the problems Ralf has raised, but as I see it first the problem must be
> acknowledged as a problem by both sides. I have been using Linux almost
> since it's inception and have seen many others (including myself at
> times) going through what Ralf is going through and I am sure there will
> be other casualties before the problem is acknowledged and action is
> taken to fix it.
I am not sure I agree with you. I started using Linux and BSD in the
mid 90s. Initially I had a number of similar experiences. I no longer
have these experiences, yet I interact with the very same communities.
All that has changed has been my attitude and behaviour. Most of that
attitude and behaviour is reflected in this document:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
Including the part about answering questions:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#id308223
I suspect that some of the people that Ralf has interacted with could
benefit from that last section.
Having said that, I believe that Ralf (and others) would benefit greatly
from the approach outlined in that link in addition to a generous
helping of patience. The fact that he continues to choose an
adversarial and impatient tone is likely a strong source of the
hostility he experiences. He has also demonstrated that he is unwilling
to participate in being part of the solution unless it is on his terms.
It is not surprising that he is having difficulty finding people to
collaborate with him.
> Whilst this may not be directly on-topic for 64studio Users list I think
> if these problems are resolved (and they will never be resolved if they
> are not discussed) it will be to the benefit of both the developers and
> users of 64studio, and all other Linux distros too.
It has already been discussed to death. This conversation has not
changed in the last 10+ years, and I do not expect it to change in the
next 10. This kind of conversation happens in hundreds if not thousands
of communities. Getting a consensus from all of them is not going to
happen. For better or for worse, it simply is what it is.
Either Ralf will adapt or he won't. His success is tied directly to the
choices he makes. I would be very surprised if finds success with his
current strategy. Of course he still gets to make that choice just as
we all do.
I also know that GNU/Linux is not always the appropriate platform choice
for all people in all situations, but for some of us, it meets and
exceeds *all* of our needs. I do genuinely want people to have the same
rich experience that I have had.
I think for now that is I will say on this topic. Of course everyone
else gets to make that choice as well.
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On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 4:19 AM, Gustin Johnson <gustin@echostar.ca> wrote:
> I am not sure I agree with you. I started using Linux and BSD in the
> mid 90s. Initially I had a number of similar experiences. I no longer
> have these experiences, yet I interact with the very same communities.
> All that has changed has been my attitude and behaviour. Most of that
Me too, though I've only been using Linux about 5 years. But I think
something deeper than that has changed: I no longer look at solving a
problem with Linux as an annoyance. Now it stimulates me, and I enjoy
learning more about how the whole thing works. Reading documentation
is simply less unpleasant. And, of course, I have more of an idea
what to look at now than I did at the beginning.
>> Whilst this may not be directly on-topic for 64studio Users list I think
>> if these problems are resolved (and they will never be resolved if they
>> are not discussed) it will be to the benefit of both the developers and
>> users of 64studio, and all other Linux distros too.
>
> It has already been discussed to death. This conversation has not
> changed in the last 10+ years, and I do not expect it to change in the
> next 10. This kind of conversation happens in hundreds if not thousands
> of communities. Getting a consensus from all of them is not going to
> happen. For better or for worse, it simply is what it is.
Many of the problems I've had, and probably a lot of problems lots of
people have, have to do with hardware manufacturers who refuse to
either release Linux drivers or the specs for their products. I've
learned my lesson, to take the time to research before buying.
> Either Ralf will adapt or he won't. His success is tied directly to the
> choices he makes. I would be very surprised if finds success with his
> current strategy. Of course he still gets to make that choice just as
> we all do.
I made that choice against Linux a dozen times, but there's just
something sweetly addictive to it.
One attitude I had to unlearn was believing that there was a central
authority somewhere that knew everything about everything involving
Linux and was refusing to give me answers, no matter how politely I
asked. "Into this world we're thrown" without any omniscient higher
power to guide us, and Google still can't answer everything.
Especially if the drivers don't exist.
-Chuckk
--
http://www.badmuthahubbard.com
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