Gustin Johnson wrote:
> > Are there any other sequencers for Linux, that are relative near to
> > Cubase and Cakewalk?
>
> IMO this is the wrong question to ask. Don't think of replacing a
> product, think of finding replacements for functions. Cubase and
> Cakewalk were built within a particular computing paradigm that does not
> accurately reflect the FLOSS world.

In the context of this mail the question should be understood as:

Are there any other sequencers for Linux, that are like MusE and Rosegarden?

I guess QTracktor is such a sequencer, but I still have to take a look
at it, I'm not sure.

> > Seq24 and LMMS are non-serious sequencers for my needs and Jazz++ seems
> > to be a less good sequencer too.
>
> No idea what you are talking about here. Personally I use Rosegarden
> for the little midi work I do. I then make use of dozens of other
> programs. Ardour for the recording, mixing, and usually applying
> effects, but there are a lot of programs that get used.

Rosegarden isn't fine for Arthur's and my computers. We are running
Rosegarden on several distros using several kernels.

> > A friend would buy my ASUS M2A-VM HDMI, but if I can't get a DAW,
> > including a MIDI sequencer running with Suse 11.0, I guess I will
> > install Windows, because I'm to stupid to get informations about a mobo,
> > that's fine with 64 Studio or any other Linux for a DAW, including a
> > MIDI sequencer, by using my AMD Athlon BE-2350 G2.
>
> > It's the second computer now, I spend money for, to get a Linux DAW,
> > that isn't fine.
>
> Research is king in any field. My Windows DAW had similar problems
> because I did not properly do my homework on the VIA chipset.

I don't know how to do research, without buying. The ASUS mobo only
isn't fine as MIDI sequencer. How should I know which chipsets will be
fine for MIDI sequencers on AM2 socked based boards. There isn't a way
to get this informations.
Will an ASUS M2N-VM instead of a M2A-VM be fine? I guess you does
research by buying several boards.

> > Is there anyone running a stable DAW, including a MIDI sequencer like
> > Rosegarden or MusE, using a socket AM2 based mobo? And if so, is it a
> > mobo that's not immoderate expensive?
>
> I have tried AM2 on 4 different chipsets, and none of them was a
> pleasant experience (2 different nVidia chipsets, 1 ATI, 1 AMD I am
> counting AMD and ATI separately because the ATI chip set preceded the
> merger). This caught me off-guard because my current DAW is an AMD 939
> based system and it has been rock solid.

In Germany most dealers only sell AM2 and LGA775 based systems. There
isn't really a choice to get a new computer that has a future.

> > The only thing I also might check out, is to install several 32-bit
> > Linux .
>
> Did not make a difference for me on the AM2 systems.
>
> Best of luck,

Thank you

So I think I have to wait, independent from the AM2 based mobo, a Linux
DAW seems to be unstable. I guess I won't try a 32-bit install, if you
have tested it.

I don't know if a Windows DAW is fine with my mobo, but if there's the
need, I can run a Windows DAW with my 32-bit ASRock.

If QTracktor won't run too, than it would be interesting to know, what
MusE, Rosegarden and QTracktor have in common, that other Linux
applications don't have in common with them.

I didn't compile a 2.6.26 kernel until now, maybe this rt kernel will be
fine for my hardware. I know it isn't fine for other people, but for
other people, having other hardware, 2.6.21, 2.6.24 and 2.6.25 seems to
be fine, while those kernels aren't fine for the M2A-VM.

Cheers,
Ralf

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Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Gustin Johnson wrote:
>>> Are there any other sequencers for Linux, that are relative near
>>> to Cubase and Cakewalk?
>> IMO this is the wrong question to ask. Don't think of replacing a
>> product, think of finding replacements for functions. Cubase and
>> Cakewalk were built within a particular computing paradigm that
>> does not accurately reflect the FLOSS world.
>
> In the context of this mail the question should be understood as:
>
> Are there any other sequencers for Linux, that are like MusE and
> Rosegarden?
>
> I guess QTracktor is such a sequencer, but I still have to take a
> look at it, I'm not sure.
>
>>> Seq24 and LMMS are non-serious sequencers for my needs and Jazz++
>>> seems to be a less good sequencer too.
>> No idea what you are talking about here. Personally I use
>> Rosegarden for the little midi work I do. I then make use of
>> dozens of other programs. Ardour for the recording, mixing, and
>> usually applying effects, but there are a lot of programs that get
>> used.
>
> Rosegarden isn't fine for Arthur's and my computers. We are running
> Rosegarden on several distros using several kernels.
>
>>> A friend would buy my ASUS M2A-VM HDMI, but if I can't get a DAW,
>>> including a MIDI sequencer running with Suse 11.0, I guess I
>>> will install Windows, because I'm to stupid to get informations
>>> about a mobo, that's fine with 64 Studio or any other Linux for a
>>> DAW, including a MIDI sequencer, by using my AMD Athlon BE-2350
>>> G2. It's the second computer now, I spend money for, to get a
>>> Linux DAW, that isn't fine.
>> Research is king in any field. My Windows DAW had similar problems
>> because I did not properly do my homework on the VIA chipset.
>
> I don't know how to do research, without buying. The ASUS mobo only
> isn't fine as MIDI sequencer. How should I know which chipsets will
> be fine for MIDI sequencers on AM2 socked based boards. There isn't a
> way to get this informations. Will an ASUS M2N-VM instead of a M2A-VM
> be fine? I guess you does research by buying several boards.
>
The Internet is a great place to do research. You did ask here before
you bought, and I know at least I (there may have been others) strongly
encouraged you toward an Intel solution.

Also, the nature of my job means that I get to see a lot of different
kinds of hardware, some of which I build Linux based systems around.

Plus I have a really good personal relationship with a local computer
parts dealer (and this is a really useful thing to have). If something
does not work for me, they take it back no questions asked (and almost
never a restocking fee). Of course I have been shopping here for 15
years, so the owners and a lot of the staff know who I am, and trust my
motives.
>
> In Germany most dealers only sell AM2 and LGA775 based systems. There
> isn't really a choice to get a new computer that has a future.

I am currently a big fan of Intel, and I tell everyone who asks (and
sometimes I even tell those who don't ask).

>>> The only thing I also might check out, is to install several
>>> 32-bit Linux .
>> Did not make a difference for me on the AM2 systems.
>>
>> Best of luck,
>
> Thank you
>
> So I think I have to wait, independent from the AM2 based mobo, a
> Linux DAW seems to be unstable. I guess I won't try a 32-bit install,
> if you have tested it.
>
There are a number of other issues that you avoid by going with a 32 bit
install, although this minor issues are disappearing with every passing day.

> I don't know if a Windows DAW is fine with my mobo, but if there's
> the need, I can run a Windows DAW with my 32-bit ASRock.
>
> If QTracktor won't run too, than it would be interesting to know,
> what MusE, Rosegarden and QTracktor have in common, that other Linux
> applications don't have in common with them.
>
Can't help here since I don't use these applications.

> I didn't compile a 2.6.26 kernel until now, maybe this rt kernel will
> be fine for my hardware. I know it isn't fine for other people, but
> for other people, having other hardware, 2.6.21, 2.6.24 and 2.6.25
> seems to be fine, while those kernels aren't fine for the M2A-VM.

There are some underlying issues with the 2.6.26 series that is causing
the Ubuntu Studio guys and gals some sleepless nights. The 2.6.27
is the series that shows promise for media production people.
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Hi Gustin

> The Internet is a great place to do research. You did ask here before
> you bought, and I know at least I (there may have been others) strongly
> encouraged you toward an Intel solution.

I can't pay for Intel and Arthur has a gigabyte ga-p35-ds3l with an
intel q6600. Chipset seems to be Intel P35 Express / Intel ICH9. What
did Arthur wrong?

There are some old boards that are definitive fine with 64 Studio and
that are not expensive, but I didn't find a dealer who sells those
boards. Also those boards aren't available second hand with the warranty
that they aren't defect.

I also get recommendations to buy AMD, for example your suggestion was:

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [64studio-users] Hardware for a Linux DAW prefered
running 64studio
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 2008 02:00:11 -0600
From: Gustin Johnson <gustin@echostar.ca>
CC: 64studio-users mailing list <64studio-users@64studio.com>
References: <47EC5227.7020208@alice-dsl.net>



I have no idea what this costs wherever you are, but in my neck of the
woods you can get 2 GB of DDR2 + AMD 4200+ (dual core) + Asus M2N-VM for
~$199 CDN brand new.

> Also, the nature of my job means that I get to see a lot of different
> kinds of hardware, some of which I build Linux based systems around.
>
> Plus I have a really good personal relationship with a local computer
> parts dealer (and this is a really useful thing to have). If something
> does not work for me, they take it back no questions asked (and almost
> never a restocking fee). Of course I have been shopping here for 15
> years, so the owners and a lot of the staff know who I am, and trust my
> motives.

You won't find such a dealer where I live. I have contacts too, e.g. the
friend who would buy my M2A-VM, but that won't be a help, if I don't
know what to buy instead.

> > In Germany most dealers only sell AM2 and LGA775 based systems. There
> > isn't really a choice to get a new computer that has a future.
>
> I am currently a big fan of Intel, and I tell everyone who asks (and
> sometimes I even tell those who don't ask).

Intel is extreme expensive in Germany and as a wrote above, Intel can
fail too.

> > So I think I have to wait, independent from the AM2 based mobo, a
> > Linux DAW seems to be unstable. I guess I won't try a 32-bit install,
> > if you have tested it.
>
> There are a number of other issues that you avoid by going with a 32 bit
> install, although this minor issues are disappearing with every
> passing day.

Not for the applications I'm using. Everything is fine until now, as
long as I don't run a MIDI sequencer.

> There are some underlying issues with the 2.6.26 series that is causing
> the Ubuntu Studio guys and gals some sleepless nights. The 2.6.27
> is the series that shows promise for media production people.

'The latest prepatch for the stable Linux kernel tree is: 2.6.27-rc8'
but there's still no rt patch at
http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/. There also isn't a
2.6.25 rt patch, but Suse has got a 2.6.25 rt kernel, so there seems to
be a way to build such a patch, but I don't know how to do this.

Cheers,
Ralf

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> Not for the applications I'm using. Everything is fine until now, as
> long as I don't run a MIDI sequencer.

I am still not that sure of what your problem is, but then I only use
the occasional midi input (drum pad or piano/keyboard).
>
>> There are some underlying issues with the 2.6.26 series that is causing
>> the Ubuntu Studio guys and gals some sleepless nights. The 2.6.27
>> is the series that shows promise for media production people.
>
> 'The latest prepatch for the stable Linux kernel tree is: 2.6.27-rc8'
> but there's still no rt patch at
> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/projects/rt/. There also isn't a
> 2.6.25 rt patch, but Suse has got a 2.6.25 rt kernel, so there seems to
> be a way to build such a patch, but I don't know how to do this.
>
The term is backporting and is probably not worth your time. Wait for
2.6.27 to finalize as it is still only a release candidate (hence the rc
in its name). After that there should be an rt patch sometime after that.

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Gustin Johnson wrote:
> > Not for the applications I'm using. Everything is fine until now, as
> > long as I don't run a MIDI sequencer.
>
> I am still not that sure of what your problem is, but then I only use
> the occasional midi input (drum pad or piano/keyboard).

If Rosegarden is running QSampler and Jack often crashes when playing
notes by MIDI in, also Rosegarden itself often crashes and often means
very, very often. It's nearly impossible to do recordings.

If I try to record an audio track for Rosegarden or even to import one,
Rosegarden crashes. Okay I could use Ardour for audio, if I have one
sequencer that will be fine, but then there still will be the sync
problem for Jack transport.

MusE crashes.

I didn't checked out QTracktor. I will do this next, but QTracktor only
can be used with 64 Studio upgraded to Lenny or Suse 11.0, but not with
the 64 Studio default install. It's the same with Jazz++, it also needs
Lenny or e.g. Suse 11.0.

I tested Rosegarden4 1.7.0 and 1.7.1 and I guess I also run Rosegarden4
1.6.x and it was possible to record audio tracks with this version. I
was using one version to check sync and jitter, maybe it was 1.7.0 but
for the Lenny upgrade of 64 Studio. Anyway, it's not possible to do MIDI
recordings without booting each 10 minutes, when using 64 Studio 2.1
default with kernel 2.6.21 or 2.6.24 or Lenny with kernel 2.6.21 or Suse
11.0 with kernel 2.6.25.

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Hi Arthur

> Hi All,

You missed to Cc it to the list .

> I had never heard of this software until yesterday.
> http://non.tuxfamily.org/
> It looks very promising, the daw and the sequencer compiled with no
> difficulty and the GUI's are nice and clean. I have not been able to
> test the sequencer because it uses jack midi and not alsa midi.
> ZynaddsubFX cvs is jack midi aware but I couldn't compile it. I don't
> know what other software synths might be compatible with it but if
> anyone knows please let me know.

I've got two 64 Studio installs, one is upgraded to Lenny. Lenny's
QJackCtl also makes Jack MIDI available, like distros like Suse 11.0
does too. There aren't many applications using Jack MIDI, most
application will use ALSA MIDI.

The Non-Sequencer seems also not be able to do tempo decimal place, it
looks primitive, but seems to have all a sequencer basically needs. I
guess it won't run with a 64 Studio default install, but I will take a
look at it after testing QTracktor.

Thanks,
Ralf




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Hi Arthur

I googled for Non Seqencer and found
http://linux.softpedia.com/get/Multimedia/Audio/The-Non-Sequencer-37577.shtml.
At the bottom of the side are links, e.g. there's a sequencer without a
GUI, see CusE http://www.informatik.uni-mannheim.de/pi4/projects/cuse/.

What kind of MIDI device do you use? Are you using an on-board graphics?

I'm using an USB MIDI device, but I'll make my soundcard's MIDI
available soon. I'm using the integrated ATI, but I'll get a NVidia
PCIex card soon or another AM2 based mobo, if someone knows an AM2 based
mobo that's fine with ALSA MIDI based sequencers like Rosegarden.

> ZynaddsubFX cvs is jack midi aware but I couldn't compile it. I don't
> know what other software synths might be compatible with it but if
> anyone knows please let me know.

Did you receive the 2 mails from Nedko and Paul's mail from the Jack dev
list too? I guess you did. If not, I'll forward it to you. If anybody
from the list needs information how to create a bridge between Jack and
ALSA MIDI and what soft synth are able to use Jack MIDI, I'll forward it
too.
Here is the only information from the Jack dev list, that seems not be
send Cc to you Arthur:

'The one I use all the time is AZR3-JACK:
http://ll-plugins.nongnu.org/azr3/'

Cheers,
Ralf


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Hi Ralf,

On the search for a sequencer you could try Energy XT
(http://www.energy-xt.com). It has a very nice workflow approach. Not free
but cheap (free try-out), and the second incarnation is cross platform
Windows/Linux/Mac. If you don't like the linux version, try the windows
version with winealsa. Notice that I did not really work with it under
Linux so i can not give better hints right now.

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Hi Markus, hi Ralf,

On the search for a sequencer you could try Energy XT
(http://www.energy-xt.com).


We use this app on the Indamixx, it works well. You could also look at
Seq24 or Qtractor.


Cheers!

Daniel


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Markus Petz wrote:
> Hi Ralf,
>
> On the search for a sequencer you could try Energy XT
> (http://www.energy-xt.com). It has a very nice workflow approach. Not
> free but cheap (free try-out), and the second incarnation is cross
> platform Windows/Linux/Mac. If you don't like the linux version, try
> the windows version with winealsa. Notice that I did not really work
> with it under Linux so i can not give better hints right now.

Hi Markus

I know that there is Energy XT, but the test version didn't (and I think
still don't) allows to save a project. I think Energy XT will use ALSA
MIDI too. When I tried Rosegarden it was relative fine for a while. I
need to do real tests, that means to save a project, to see if a
sequencer really works.

Using wineasio with Reaper there is one big problem and I don't think
anything will differ when using Energy XT running on wineasio. Reaper is
a very good HD recording and MIDI sequencer, but running on wineasio
latencies are extreme long. More worse are the delays when you do a HD
recording and try to sync it with MIDI, because it's not only a static
delay, when using wineasio you also get to much jitter because of the
latencies. I think Reaper is fine and it has to do with wineasio .

My ASUS hardware and Arthur's Intel hardware seems to need a kernel ex
2.6.27 and some BIOS updates.

I'll try to get a new monitor, SCSI hard disk and MIDI outputs expansion
for my Atari ST if I can't get any Linux sequencer stable, but if it
will be possible to sync a Linux HD recorder by MTC.

I made test with Suse 11.0 and different RT kernels, 64 Studio 2.1
'vanilla' install and different RT kernels and 64 Studio 2.1 upgraded to
Lenny, just using the 64 Studio kernel. Arthur is running 64 Studio,
Arch and Sidux.

ALSA MIDI seems to be not very solid, there seems to be the need to have
hardware that is perfect for Linux. I don't know anything about JACK
MIDI, but even if non-sequencer and dino would be fine, there is still
the need to use the bridge between ALSA MIDI and JACK MIDI and both
sequencers aren't modern sequencers.

I've bad luck with my hardware (it's new, because I had bad luck with my
old hardware too).

If someone isn't fine with Linux MIDI workstations, but fine with the
ethics of Microsoft (or Apple), he better uses Microsoft (or Apple)
instead of an 'emulation', because until now wineasio isn't 'fast'
enough, but even so wineasio is stable, maybe it's 'fast' enough to get
better latencies, less delay etc., when having a faster CPU. My CPU is
an 64-bit Athlon dual core 2,1GHz, but I guess troubles with latencies
and delay has to do with Periodes/Buffer, maybe there is the Linux
Periodes/Buffer added to the ASIO Periodes/Buffer or something like that.

Thank you for your information . It's better to get information about
something I'm already knowing, instead of missing informations.

Some days ago I googled a lot for 'pro-audio' using Linux. Every
solution seems to be audio only, like the Harrison stuff, excepted of
the Korg OASIS, but that isn't running FOSS MIDI applications.

At the moment I'm confused. Right now I guess I should try to sync some
HD recorders as slave and master to my Atari ST, by doing tests to see
if there's delay or jitter. If a HD recorder will be stable and in
perfect sync when running as slave and master, I should think about
getting the needed hardware for my Atari ST instead of struggling with
Linux MIDI. Some hours ago I thought about checking out Qtractor, or a
32-bit Linux.

I know that the Atari ST is in perfect sync when synced as slave by
SMPTE to tapes. Nearly no pre roll is needed and there isn't to hear any
jitter or delay.

For the needs I've got, I need to sync the Atari by MTC as slave and
master, if there will be no MIDI sequencer for Linux I can use. A Linux
HD recorder just running as slave 'OR' master isn't a help.

Because no one I'm making music with is using Linux too, it would be
good to have a software that can run on Apple and Microsoft too. The
people next to me with different hardware have troubles with Linux too,
that's why they are not interested in Linux . The advantage for me is,
that a friend would take my mobo, but I don't know which mobo to buy
instead.

Cheers,
Ralf

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