FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

» Linux Archive
Home
New Posts
Search
FAQ


Go Back   Linux Archive > 64 Studio > 64 Studio User

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
 
Old 09-04-2008, 11:33 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Hi

Sound is without noise and there are no XRUNS, but there are uncleared
software crashes.

jackd is set to:

Frames/Period: 128
Sample Rate: 48000
Periods/Buffer: 2

I can imagine to set jackd to:

Frames/Period: 256
Sample Rate: 48000
Periods/Buffer: 3

What are the usual settings for Envy24 cards with 2 analogue IOs?

Cheers,
Ralf

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 01:13 AM
Arthur
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Hi
>
> Sound is without noise and there are no XRUNS, but there are uncleared
> software crashes.
>
> jackd is set to:
>
> Frames/Period: 128
> Sample Rate: 48000
> Periods/Buffer: 2
>
> I can imagine to set jackd to:
>
> Frames/Period: 256
> Sample Rate: 48000
> Periods/Buffer: 3
>
> What are the usual settings for Envy24 cards with 2 analogue IOs?
>
>
Hi Ralf,

I have a delta 44 which also has the ICE1712 chip
I'm set at:

Frames/Period: 64
Sample Rate: 48000
Periods/Buffer: 2

2.67 msec

I only run two mics at a time but I have had no xruns on ardour. I haven't tested it on rosegarden audio yet.

Cheers,
Arthur

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 05:20 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Arthur wrote:
> Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Sound is without noise and there are no XRUNS, but there are uncleared
>> software crashes.
>>
>> jackd is set to:
>>
>> Frames/Period: 128
>> Sample Rate: 48000
>> Periods/Buffer: 2
>>
>> I can imagine to set jackd to:
>>
>> Frames/Period: 256
>> Sample Rate: 48000
>> Periods/Buffer: 3
>>
>> What are the usual settings for Envy24 cards with 2 analogue IOs?
>>
>>
> Hi Ralf,
>
> I have a delta 44 which also has the ICE1712 chip
> I'm set at:
>
> Frames/Period: 64
> Sample Rate: 48000
> Periods/Buffer: 2
>
> 2.67 msec
>
> I only run two mics at a time but I have had no xruns on ardour. I
> haven't tested it on rosegarden audio yet.
>
> Cheers,
> Arthur

Thank you Arthur

your Delta 44 might be better than my TerraTec EWX 24/96, because your's
has got a DSP for a Mixer, but the TerraTec is fine for Windows with
latencies around 5ms, I searched for this by Google and I also noticed
that I also have no noise or XRUNS at smaller values than 128 Frames, 2
Periods, 48000Hz, so I don't think that I will have crashes because of
128 Frames, 2 Periodes, 48000Hz.

When using my card with Reaper on wine, I had to increase the latency
because of XRUNS, but even with XRUNS Reaper never crashed like
Rosegarden and other Linux applications do, when there are no XRUNS.

I'm afraid that the crashes have nothing to do with the settings for jackd.

"Conventional low latency systems (e.g. ASIO) use n=2 all the time. ALSA
is rather unusual in allowing other values."
(http://lau.linuxaudio.org/jack/)

Because I know that the TerraTec is fine with Windows and Cubase using
the ASIO driver, I guess there shouldn't be the need to increase
Periodes/Buffer to 3.

I've enough CPU resources, but didn't use dither anyway. If ports means
the number of clients jackd can handle, I also can't see wrong value for
that for my settings.

People from the Linux community often say my card should be a less good
card, I should buy a new one and indeed the sound quality I've got with
it using Linux, is less good than when in use with Windows, but on the
other hand there seems to be a lot of people that seems to be fine with
Envy24 cards for Linux.

I can't remember the kind of crashes I've now, when using Linux with my
old hardware, but non-audio Linux with my new hardware is fine and it
wasn't with my old hardware.

I'll try

Frames/Period: 256
Sample Rate: 48000
Periods/Buffer: 3

or

Frames/Period: 512
Sample Rate: 48000
Periods/Buffer: 2

I guess any higher settings are abstruse for a DAW. Using higher values
for Reaper on wine makes Reaper unusable because of bad timing and bad
sync, but even with less high values Reaper, wine or jackd didn't crash,
just the sound was broken when using the mouse, changing the desktop etc..

Cheers,
Ralf

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 05:30 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

PS: Also Linux applications on my hardware (using the on-board graphics)
seems to need latency < 8ms to have less enough jitter and sync troubles
to make music. When increasing the values now, it's only for testing if
the Linux applications won't crash any more. If jitter and sync will be
better when using a NVidia PCIex card, than I might be fine with a
latency around 20ms for Linux, if applications than won't crash any more.

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 06:58 AM
Arthur
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Arthur wrote:
>
>> Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Sound is without noise and there are no XRUNS, but there are uncleared
>>> software crashes.
>>>
>>> jackd is set to:
>>>
>>> Frames/Period: 128
>>> Sample Rate: 48000
>>> Periods/Buffer: 2
>>>
>>> I can imagine to set jackd to:
>>>
>>> Frames/Period: 256
>>> Sample Rate: 48000
>>> Periods/Buffer: 3
>>>
>>> What are the usual settings for Envy24 cards with 2 analogue IOs?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Hi Ralf,
>>
>> I have a delta 44 which also has the ICE1712 chip
>> I'm set at:
>>
>> Frames/Period: 64
>> Sample Rate: 48000
>> Periods/Buffer: 2
>>
>> 2.67 msec
>>
>> I only run two mics at a time but I have had no xruns on ardour. I
>> haven't tested it on rosegarden audio yet.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Arthur
>>
>
> Thank you Arthur
>
> your Delta 44 might be better than my TerraTec EWX 24/96, because your's
> has got a DSP for a Mixer, but the TerraTec is fine for Windows with
> latencies around 5ms, I searched for this by Google and I also noticed
> that I also have no noise or XRUNS at smaller values than 128 Frames, 2
> Periods, 48000Hz, so I don't think that I will have crashes because of
> 128 Frames, 2 Periodes, 48000Hz.
>
> When using my card with Reaper on wine, I had to increase the latency
> because of XRUNS, but even with XRUNS Reaper never crashed like
> Rosegarden and other Linux applications do, when there are no XRUNS.
>
> I'm afraid that the crashes have nothing to do with the settings for jackd.
>
> "Conventional low latency systems (e.g. ASIO) use n=2 all the time. ALSA
> is rather unusual in allowing other values."
> (http://lau.linuxaudio.org/jack/)
>
> Because I know that the TerraTec is fine with Windows and Cubase using
> the ASIO driver, I guess there shouldn't be the need to increase
> Periodes/Buffer to 3.
>
> I've enough CPU resources, but didn't use dither anyway. If ports means
> the number of clients jackd can handle, I also can't see wrong value for
> that for my settings.
>
> People from the Linux community often say my card should be a less good
> card, I should buy a new one and indeed the sound quality I've got with
> it using Linux, is less good than when in use with Windows, but on the
> other hand there seems to be a lot of people that seems to be fine with
> Envy24 cards for Linux.
>
> I can't remember the kind of crashes I've now, when using Linux with my
> old hardware, but non-audio Linux with my new hardware is fine and it
> wasn't with my old hardware.
>
> I'll try
>
> Frames/Period: 256
> Sample Rate: 48000
> Periods/Buffer: 3
>
> or
>
> Frames/Period: 512
> Sample Rate: 48000
> Periods/Buffer: 2
>
> I guess any higher settings are abstruse for a DAW. Using higher values
> for Reaper on wine makes Reaper unusable because of bad timing and bad
> sync, but even with less high values Reaper, wine or jackd didn't crash,
> just the sound was broken when using the mouse, changing the desktop etc..
>
> Cheers,
> Ralf
>
>
Hi Ralf,

I have already addressed the issue of linux audio not being perfect. You
are running wine and maybe (I don't know) vst programs and other things
that make a difficult thing more difficult. I now have things running
well on Sidux and Archlinux (not an advertisement, I still like
64Studio) and for those jumping into this post without memorizing my
previous posts, my hardware is too new and I can't run 64Studio (just
yet). Try to simplify and do some soul searching about what you really
need. I'm sorry for not being a linux guru and being more helpful
technologically, but I would say, go back to basics and start making MUSIC.
The truth is that a creative person can make music on an old 4 track
reel-to-reel (or some logs and a couple of sticks). You strike me as an
intelligent person. Get creative and work with what you've got.
And please post what you come up with, I'd like to hear your music..

Best.
Arthur


_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 08:30 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Hi Arthur

maybe I should send this email off-list, but maybe this will help people
making understand, that there are some people that really can't spend
much money and that there are no alternatives to make music without a DAW.

Just thinking about how much Guitar strings are in Germany, I'm happy to
have keyboards, even if I'm not a keyboarder, but a guitar player.

> Hi Ralf,
>
> I have already addressed the issue of linux audio not being perfect.
> You are running wine and maybe (I don't know) vst programs and other
> things that make a difficult thing more difficult.

I'm not using reaper any more, I'm only using Linux applications without
VSTs. I get those errors even if not using DSSIs, LADSPAs and LV2s, when
only using Linux applications. I get no errors when using non-audio
Linux applications.

> I now have things running well on Sidux and Archlinux (not an
> advertisement, I still like 64Studio) and for those jumping into this
> post without memorizing my previous posts, my hardware is too new and
> I can't run 64Studio (just yet). Try to simplify and do some soul
> searching about what you really need. I'm sorry for not being a linux
> guru and being more helpful technologically, but I would say, go back
> to basics and start making MUSIC.
> The truth is that a creative person can make music on an old 4 track
> reel-to-reel (or some logs and a couple of sticks). You strike me as
> an intelligent person. Get creative and work with what you've got.
> And please post what you come up with, I'd like to hear your music..

I try to set a Linux DAW, because my Yamaha MT44D and 2 DAT recorders
are defect. I also have no SMPTE for my Atari any more. I did less
recordings, especially homerecordings in the last 15 years, I'll do some
homerecording again.

Getting my non-computer equipment running, or playing with other
musicians, without recording, is much more expensive. I can repair or
build audio equipment myself, I have service manuals, a friend has got
good repair equipment, but the coasts to repair or build new are to
high. Playing with musicians, you need a room, such rooms, were it's
allowed to make music. Those rooms are very expensive in Germany, you
only can make music at special times, not the whole day and those rooms
are world war II bunkers, without windows, the electricity rate is very
high, higher than for home use and you have to wait for a small room.
You can't do orchestral music there, only loud rock, because the rooms
next to your rooms will have rock bands playing bad, but loud.

I can try "Sidux and Archlinux" too, but Suse 11.0, 64 Studio Lenny and
64 Studio default are not fine, all with different settings and versions
of Linux, but the same roubles.

The other thing is, that I'm jobless and to do jobs, there is the need
to have recording equipment.

I don't need anything, I can make music in my thoughts and I also don't
need a job as musician, but ...

Because of my social standing, I decided not to become a father. Because
I don't like war, I decided not to join the German army, in Germany that
was a crime, with a higher sentence than people got who rape and torture
children. Because I'm highly gifted I fail the German school system.
Because I don't like capitalists, I'm in fight with German music
business. I know people like Brauner, from Brauner microphones, we were
friends from childhood until some years ago. Capitalism sucks! I won't
write about my whole life, what I will say is, that having a DAW for me
is the only thing I expected for the last few years I still have got, if
I have a few years.

So ...

Recording some music in a homestudio is the least I do expect. I'm fine
with a 4-Track cassette tape after well measuring, a consumer DAT for
mastering and a SMPTE synced sequencer. I have enough equipment, but
especially the 4 Track and my DATs are defect. But getting a 4-Track
running with good enough quality is more expensive than to buy
completely new computer hardware again, I don't have the money for
completely new computer hardware. I'm not fine with 4-Track that has no
good sound and I'm not fine with sticks and logs. I'm fine with having
less to eat, no money for the doctor, holes in my clothes, but I'll work
night and day on my DAW, even if it will be a Windows DAW, if Linux
won't run.

I do understand what you are saying. But my situation is, that I will do
homerecoding and the less expensive way is doing it by using a DAW.
Other people of my social standing are junkies, sitting the whole day at
railway stations, instead they also could play with sticks and logs, but
humans have needs and if you are down you only need one thing. A DAW
will be that one thing for me, a DAW is heroin for me.

That's why I test things the whole day and write one email after the other.

Cheers,
Ralf

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 03:38 PM
Arthur
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> Hi Arthur
>
> maybe I should send this email off-list, but maybe this will help people
> making understand, that there are some people that really can't spend
> much money and that there are no alternatives to make music without a DAW.
>
> Just thinking about how much Guitar strings are in Germany, I'm happy to
> have keyboards, even if I'm not a keyboarder, but a guitar player.
>
>
>> Hi Ralf,
>>
>> I have already addressed the issue of linux audio not being perfect.
>> You are running wine and maybe (I don't know) vst programs and other
>> things that make a difficult thing more difficult.
>>
>
> I'm not using reaper any more, I'm only using Linux applications without
> VSTs. I get those errors even if not using DSSIs, LADSPAs and LV2s, when
> only using Linux applications. I get no errors when using non-audio
> Linux applications.
>
>
>> I now have things running well on Sidux and Archlinux (not an
>> advertisement, I still like 64Studio) and for those jumping into this
>> post without memorizing my previous posts, my hardware is too new and
>> I can't run 64Studio (just yet). Try to simplify and do some soul
>> searching about what you really need. I'm sorry for not being a linux
>> guru and being more helpful technologically, but I would say, go back
>> to basics and start making MUSIC.
>> The truth is that a creative person can make music on an old 4 track
>> reel-to-reel (or some logs and a couple of sticks). You strike me as
>> an intelligent person. Get creative and work with what you've got.
>> And please post what you come up with, I'd like to hear your music..
>>
>
> I try to set a Linux DAW, because my Yamaha MT44D and 2 DAT recorders
> are defect. I also have no SMPTE for my Atari any more. I did less
> recordings, especially homerecordings in the last 15 years, I'll do some
> homerecording again.
>
> Getting my non-computer equipment running, or playing with other
> musicians, without recording, is much more expensive. I can repair or
> build audio equipment myself, I have service manuals, a friend has got
> good repair equipment, but the coasts to repair or build new are to
> high. Playing with musicians, you need a room, such rooms, were it's
> allowed to make music. Those rooms are very expensive in Germany, you
> only can make music at special times, not the whole day and those rooms
> are world war II bunkers, without windows, the electricity rate is very
> high, higher than for home use and you have to wait for a small room.
> You can't do orchestral music there, only loud rock, because the rooms
> next to your rooms will have rock bands playing bad, but loud.
>
> I can try "Sidux and Archlinux" too, but Suse 11.0, 64 Studio Lenny and
> 64 Studio default are not fine, all with different settings and versions
> of Linux, but the same roubles.
>
> The other thing is, that I'm jobless and to do jobs, there is the need
> to have recording equipment.
>
> I don't need anything, I can make music in my thoughts and I also don't
> need a job as musician, but ...
>
> Because of my social standing, I decided not to become a father. Because
> I don't like war, I decided not to join the German army, in Germany that
> was a crime, with a higher sentence than people got who rape and torture
> children. Because I'm highly gifted I fail the German school system.
> Because I don't like capitalists, I'm in fight with German music
> business. I know people like Brauner, from Brauner microphones, we were
> friends from childhood until some years ago. Capitalism sucks! I won't
> write about my whole life, what I will say is, that having a DAW for me
> is the only thing I expected for the last few years I still have got, if
> I have a few years.
>
> So ...
>
> Recording some music in a homestudio is the least I do expect. I'm fine
> with a 4-Track cassette tape after well measuring, a consumer DAT for
> mastering and a SMPTE synced sequencer. I have enough equipment, but
> especially the 4 Track and my DATs are defect. But getting a 4-Track
> running with good enough quality is more expensive than to buy
> completely new computer hardware again, I don't have the money for
> completely new computer hardware. I'm not fine with 4-Track that has no
> good sound and I'm not fine with sticks and logs. I'm fine with having
> less to eat, no money for the doctor, holes in my clothes, but I'll work
> night and day on my DAW, even if it will be a Windows DAW, if Linux
> won't run.
>
> I do understand what you are saying. But my situation is, that I will do
> homerecoding and the less expensive way is doing it by using a DAW.
> Other people of my social standing are junkies, sitting the whole day at
> railway stations, instead they also could play with sticks and logs, but
> humans have needs and if you are down you only need one thing. A DAW
> will be that one thing for me, a DAW is heroin for me.
>
> That's why I test things the whole day and write one email after the other.
>
>
Okay, I get it. I've been going through your emails and it seems that
your problems are with timing. I know that you have tried lots of
possible solutions but I don't have the time right now to re-read all of
your emails so please tell me again the most fundamental problem and
I'll check my system to see if I have any such issues. Do you have a
windows partition on your machine? I ask because I once installed some
cracked software to test out the program and it wrecked the timing on my
machine. I had to use Darik's boot and nuke to get rid of the problem..
Please tell me what versions of programs you are using and the most
simple scenario where the problem occurs. Also are these issues only
midi or are they audio too?

Good Luck,
Arthur

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 05:52 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

> Okay, I get it. I've been going through your emails and it seems that
> your problems are with timing. I know that you have tried lots of
> possible solutions but I don't have the time right now to re-read all
> of your emails so please tell me again the most fundamental problem
> and I'll check my system to see if I have any such issues. Do you have
> a windows partition on your machine? I ask because I once installed
> some cracked software to test out the program and it wrecked the
> timing on my machine. I had to use Darik's boot and nuke to get rid of
> the problem.. Please tell me what versions of programs you are using
> and the most simple scenario where the problem occurs. Also are these
> issues only midi or are they audio too?
>
> Good Luck,
> Arthur

Hi Arthur

I'm without Windows. If there will be the need, I could install a
Windows and also Cubase or something like that, but even just for a
test, this should be the last solution, because I than have to clean the
first partition on one of the hard disks. I had a Windows for tests for
my old hardware, so I know that the audio card is fine with Cubase.
I might could ask a friend who has got a USB hard disk for situations
like this, but he has less time and I might have to wait, before I could
borrow his USB hard disk. By the way, the TerraTec is also his and not
my card, but he don't need the card.

I've got two main problems. The timing issue is one of them, but this
maybe can be solved by using a PCIex NVidia graphics, instead of the
integrated graphics, that needs access to the RAM, because of the frame
buffer. With the settings for Jack 128 frames and 2 periods sync and
jitter are okay, even when using the integrated graphics.

The more serious problem is, that I can't record MIDI or do any audio
editing without having a crash every 10 minutes or less, with the need
to shutdown the computer. Starting a new session or just rebooting won't
help, the computer has to turned of before I can try again.

The error is, that jackd disconnect clients. Or it seems to be the reason.

This will happen if I'll use Rosegarden with fluidsynth DSSIs or
Rosegarden with QSampler, I also get this error when using other
applications, but those are less tested by me, e.g. I will test MusE
again today, if I won't be delayed by some unexpected occurrence again.

I wish to have this solved for the versions of the 64 Studio default
install. I'm also using a 64 Studio install with versions upgraded to
Lenny and Suse 11.0 with the latest versions for most applications.

I can take a look which versions I'm exactly using, but I have to bot
into another 64 Studio or to take a look at the repositories for 64
Studio 2.1 stable.

I'm in a hurry now.

Cheers,
Ralf

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 09:27 PM
Gustin Johnson
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ralf Mardorf wrote:

> I've got two main problems. The timing issue is one of them, but this
> maybe can be solved by using a PCIex NVidia graphics, instead of the
> integrated graphics, that needs access to the RAM, because of the frame
> buffer. With the settings for Jack 128 frames and 2 periods sync and
> jitter are okay, even when using the integrated graphics.

I do not see how moving from an ATI video device to an nVidia one is
going to help your timing issues. If anything, you would be better
served with buying a different motherboard that has a different chipset.

>
> The more serious problem is, that I can't record MIDI or do any audio
> editing without having a crash every 10 minutes or less, with the need
> to shutdown the computer. Starting a new session or just rebooting won't
> help, the computer has to turned of before I can try again.
>
> The error is, that jackd disconnect clients. Or it seems to be the reason.
>
Likely the jackd process has died. Can you do a ps axf |grep jack from
the console after a crash? Launching jack from the command line with
- --debug-timer OR -D and --verbose OR -v

> This will happen if I'll use Rosegarden with fluidsynth DSSIs or
> Rosegarden with QSampler, I also get this error when using other
> applications, but those are less tested by me, e.g. I will test MusE
> again today, if I won't be delayed by some unexpected occurrence again.
>
> I wish to have this solved for the versions of the 64 Studio default
> install. I'm also using a 64 Studio install with versions upgraded to
> Lenny and Suse 11.0 with the latest versions for most applications.

Your motherboard is not well supported by the kernel that ships with
64Studio. Period. Get a new motherboard or build your own kernel.
Seriously, you have built nearly every other package from source
*except* the one that probably matters most.

> I can take a look which versions I'm exactly using, but I have to bot
> into another 64 Studio or to take a look at the repositories for 64
> Studio 2.1 stable.
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFIwZZDwRXgH3rKGfMRAk6GAJ9ciqDw+fYTSz9UM6WH6z o2C8SGlwCbBTbB
w3TpKbSwMfiiJjmloP+a/oo=
=CGfg
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 
Old 09-05-2008, 09:50 PM
Arthur
 
Default How has jackd to be set for Envy24 cards?

Gustin Johnson wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
>
>> I've got two main problems. The timing issue is one of them, but this
>> maybe can be solved by using a PCIex NVidia graphics, instead of the
>> integrated graphics, that needs access to the RAM, because of the frame
>> buffer. With the settings for Jack 128 frames and 2 periods sync and
>> jitter are okay, even when using the integrated graphics.
>>
>
> I do not see how moving from an ATI video device to an nVidia one is
> going to help your timing issues. If anything, you would be better
> served with buying a different motherboard that has a different chipset.
>
>
>
If I understand correctly, he is running an onboard graphics card,
switching to a PCIex could help significantly.

Arthur


_______________________________________________
64studio-users mailing list
64studio-users@64studio.com
http://lists.64studio.com/mailman/listinfo/64studio-users
 

Thread Tools




All times are GMT. The time now is 07:36 PM.

VBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO ©2007, Crawlability, Inc.
Copyright ©2007 - 2008, www.linux-archive.org