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Old 08-14-2008, 05:35 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sequencer timing source

Hi

the sequencer timing source for Rosegarden is set to "(auto)", but there
also is the choice between

- system timer (software timer)
- RTC timer (battery hardware clock)
- PCM Playback 0-0-0
- PCM Capture 0-0-1

I think the trouble I've got with MIDI events that are sometimes some ms
to early or correct or some ms to late is caused by improper handling of
MIDI event buffers, maybe by Jack, that would explain why the timing is
better (probably okay to make music) for DSSIs, but maybe it has to do
with the use of different timers or something else.

How can I make sure that all MIDI events are synced by one timer?

Cheers,
Ralf

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Old 08-14-2008, 05:49 AM
Folderol
 
Default Sequencer timing source

On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:35:24 +0200
Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:

> Hi
>
> the sequencer timing source for Rosegarden is set to "(auto)", but there
> also is the choice between
>
> - system timer (software timer)
> - RTC timer (battery hardware clock)
> - PCM Playback 0-0-0
> - PCM Capture 0-0-1
>
> I think the trouble I've got with MIDI events that are sometimes some ms
> to early or correct or some ms to late is caused by improper handling of
> MIDI event buffers, maybe by Jack, that would explain why the timing is
> better (probably okay to make music) for DSSIs, but maybe it has to do
> with the use of different timers or something else.
>
> How can I make sure that all MIDI events are synced by one timer?
>
> Cheers,
> Ralf
>

I had a timing problem with Rosegarden where, for no obvious reason it
would suddenly race. switching from 'auto' to 'RTC' completely cured
this. Maybe that is what you need to do.

--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk

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Old 08-14-2008, 06:00 AM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sequencer timing source

Folderol wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:35:24 +0200
> Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> the sequencer timing source for Rosegarden is set to "(auto)", but there
>> also is the choice between
>>
>> - system timer (software timer)
>> - RTC timer (battery hardware clock)
>> - PCM Playback 0-0-0
>> - PCM Capture 0-0-1
>>
>> I think the trouble I've got with MIDI events that are sometimes some ms
>> to early or correct or some ms to late is caused by improper handling of
>> MIDI event buffers, maybe by Jack, that would explain why the timing is
>> better (probably okay to make music) for DSSIs, but maybe it has to do
>> with the use of different timers or something else.
>>
>> How can I make sure that all MIDI events are synced by one timer?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>
> I had a timing problem with Rosegarden where, for no obvious reason it
> would suddenly race. switching from 'auto' to 'RTC' completely cured
> this. Maybe that is what you need to do.
>


Thank you I'll test this today. It would be interesting to know which
timer is used by Jack and ALSA and if DSSIs are using ALSA or if they
have their own MIDI.

Are you fine with limits.conf "nice -10"? I set it to -19, maybe DSSIs
are also fine with -10. The virtual synth that are no plugins, will be
controlled with less fluctuation, when nice is set to -19, but the drift
still is to extreme.

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Old 08-14-2008, 02:37 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sequencer timing source

Folderol wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:35:24 +0200
> Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> wrote:
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> the sequencer timing source for Rosegarden is set to "(auto)", but there
>> also is the choice between
>>
>> - system timer (software timer)
>> - RTC timer (battery hardware clock)
>> - PCM Playback 0-0-0
>> - PCM Capture 0-0-1
>>
>> I think the trouble I've got with MIDI events that are sometimes some ms
>> to early or correct or some ms to late is caused by improper handling of
>> MIDI event buffers, maybe by Jack, that would explain why the timing is
>> better (probably okay to make music) for DSSIs, but maybe it has to do
>> with the use of different timers or something else.
>>
>> How can I make sure that all MIDI events are synced by one timer?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Ralf
>>
>>
>
> I had a timing problem with Rosegarden where, for no obvious reason it
> would suddenly race. switching from 'auto' to 'RTC' completely cured
> this. Maybe that is what you need to do.
>

I think I can test it tonight. RTC seems to be a good idea:



-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [Jack-Devel] Sequencer timing source
Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:31:56 +0200
From: Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net>
To: Rui Nuno Capela <rncbc@rncbc.org>
CC: Nedko Arnaudov <nedko@arnaudov.name>, jack-devel@lists.jackaudio.org
References: <48A3C41C.1050904@alice-dsl.net>
<87vdy4t2zw.fsf@arnaudov.name> <48A3F23D.2050001@alice-dsl.net>
<48A3FE1B.3070602@rncbc.org>



Rui Nuno Capela wrote:
> Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>> Nedko Arnaudov wrote:
>>> Ralf Mardorf <ralf.mardorf@alice-dsl.net> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> the sequencer timing source for Rosegarden is set to "(auto)", but
>>>> there
>>>> also is the choice between
>>>>
>>>> - system timer (software timer)
>>>> - RTC timer (battery hardware clock)
>>>> - PCM Playback 0-0-0
>>>> - PCM Capture 0-0-1
>>>>
>>>> I think the trouble I've got with MIDI events that are sometimes
>>>> some ms
>>>> to early or correct or some ms to late is caused by improper
>>>> handling of
>>>> MIDI event buffers, maybe by Jack, that would explain why the
>>>> timing is
>>>> better (probably okay to make music) for DSSIs, but maybe it has to do
>>>> with the use of different timers or something else.
>>>>
>>> AFAIK Rosegarden does not use JACK MIDI, it uses ALSA sequencer MIDI
>>> API. So I dont see how JACK can be blamed for "improper handling of
>>> MIDI
>>> event buffers".
>>>
>>>
>>>> How can I make sure that all MIDI events are synced by one timer?
>>>>
>>> The obvious solution: Use JACK for both audio and MIDI.
>>> The hidden solution use same clock source for MIDI and audio. It may be
>>> that last two options in timing source selection will do that.
>>>
>>> Disclaimer: I'm not actually using Rosegarden and my understanding
>>> about
>>> Rosegarden MIDI event scheduling is quite limited too. So it may be
>>> good
>>> idea to wait for Chris Cannam reply (I think he is subscribed to this
>>> list).
>>>
>>
>> Thank you Nedko
>>
>> do I understand it right, that QJackCtl's connections tab "ALSA" does
>> connect ALSA MIDI clients and they have nothing to do with Jack? Okay,
>> than ALSA might be not good or is using another timer than Rosegarden
>> or ...
>>
>> I don't like Rosegarden, but it seems to be the best sequencer for
>> Linux, so I have to use it, if I won't install a Windows.
>>
>> Just to narrow down the cause for the fluctuation of the timing of MIDI
>> events, I would use any sequencer. Is there a Sequencer using Jack MIDI
>> and are there soundfont and GIG sample players that use Jack MIDI?
>> QSynth seems only to know ALSA and OSS for MIDI.
>>
>> I guess it has to do with the timers. Maybe Rosegarden and the DSSI
>> Fluidsynth are using the same timer, but QSynth Fluidsynth is using
>> another timer.
>>
>
> qsynth, fluidsynth, rosegarden, qjackctl alsa connections tab, are all
> using the alsa-seq infrastructure for midi capture, queueing, routing
> and playback. where applicable.
>
> alsa-seq is mainly implemented through the snd-seq-midi kernel module
> and has no relationship to the jack audio service. although there's
> currently an alsa-seq backend for jack midi, it has its own separate
> issues that is not in call here.
>
> the alsa-seq midi interface has these programmatic option for you to
> choose timers and that's exactly what rosegarden offers you. as a
> kernel module it all mostly depends on which kernel configuration
> you're running.
>
> for example, if you're using the system timer option it helps a lot if
> your kernel is configured with CONFIG_HZ_1000 and not the
> CONFIG_HZ_250 as is the default on all distros. otoh, if the rtc is
> the default timer assigned by alsa-seq, then it's way better you have
> it CONFIG_PREEMPT_RT aka realtime kernel. anyway, your troubles seem
> related to jitter in midi timing and thus probably due to scheduling
> delays. it thus helps a lot having a realtime kernel tuned for the
> task(s).
>
> of course, wrt rosegarden, Chris Cannam is the authority at hand, not
> me
>
> hth

I guess the kernel-rt for Suse and the kernel-multimedia for 64 Studio
are using CONFIG_PREEMPT_RT. Someone from the 64 Studio list got another
timing trouble with Rosegarden and set the timer from auto to RTC and
now it's fine for him. Ah, yes jitter is the right word. I imagined that
one timer is used to push MIDI event information to a buffer and another
timer is interpreting this information wrong, when pulling it from the
buffer or something like this. Because I set nice from -10 to -19, while
the value for rtprio is set to 99, I thought there should be no
scheduling delays any more. Is this a fallacy?

I will try RTC for Rosegarden and test some other sequencers.

Yes, this is a help, even if it shouldn't work.

I'll report later.

Thanx


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Old 08-14-2008, 06:26 PM
Ralf Mardorf
 
Default Sequencer timing source

Mike Baas wrote:
>
> I think the trouble I've got with MIDI events that are sometimes
> some ms
> to early or correct or some ms to late is caused by improper
> handling of
> MIDI event buffers, maybe by Jack, that would explain why the
> timing is
> better (probably okay to make music) for DSSIs, but maybe it has to do
> with the use of different timers or something else.
>
>
> Ralf,
>
> Been reading your messages to the list. Can you tell me what kind of
> midi interface you are using?
>
> mb


Hi Mike

the MIDI interface to external equipment at the moment is a no-name USB
device, the no-name brand is called "swissonic", it's from Thomann, the
biggest audio equipment dealer in Germany, but the jitter I reported was
only tested with internal, virtual instruments. Rosegarden MIDI out by
QJackCtl's ALSA tab (latest informations are, that this is only ALSA and
not Jack) connected to Hydrogen, resp. QSynth to avoid any human touch
function that comes with Hydrogen. The interface in this case is only
the software interface, an ALSA output client connected to an ALSA input
client.

The 64 Studio users and Jack-Devel Lists are very helpful with this
jitter trouble. At the moment it's up to me to test what will happen if
I'll use RTC as timer for Rosegarden. I will do this tonight. There are
also some other thoughts, but this seems to be the most promising one.
I'll report later what will happen if Rosegarden uses RTC instead of auto.

Cheers,
Ralf


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Old 08-15-2008, 07:23 AM
"Mike Baas"
 
Default Sequencer timing source

the MIDI interface to external equipment at the moment is a no-name USB


device, the no-name brand is called "swissonic", it's from Thomann, the

biggest audio equipment dealer in Germany, but the jitter I reported was

only tested with internal, virtual instruments. Rosegarden MIDI out by

QJackCtl's ALSA tab (latest informations are, that this is only ALSA and

not Jack) connected to Hydrogen, resp. QSynth to avoid any human touch

function that comes with Hydrogen. The interface in this case is only

the software interface, an ALSA output client connected to an ALSA input

client.


As far as I know, Swissonic makes high end pro audio gear and is not no-name. * It might seem no-name to you, being in Europe.* But here in the States, Swissonic is almost considered boutique, at least the ADDA converters.


Your comments make me want to test things more rigorously.* I've had great success with timing using Rosegarden's MIDI sequencer and routing all audio via JACK, but had timing problems using any of the virtual instruments internally in Rosegarden.* Running ghostess for any plugins improved all of my timing issues significantly.


http://www.smbolton.com/linux.html << link to ghostess

Don't know what 'only ALSA' means or 'ALSA tab'.* I'm letting JACK take care of everything and the timing and even audio latency is flawless on my RME 96/52.* Are you not letting JACK handle all of your routing for a reason?* Sorry if I don't understand what you are up to.


Peace,

mb




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